You probably need to provide some more info. Are you always casting right hand up? I guess most people do this, at least at first, so I assume you are now trying to learn the snap t from river left because that is the easiest one to learn next after the double spey from river right. I have no idea what you mean by a regular D vs a backwards D, but there is only one way that it can go and that is lift, then sharp high upstream motion smoothy going back to a sharp low motion that goes all the way back to pointing well downstream of you target. So the D can only go one direction.

Actually the shape on the repositioning move can vary from a very high and rounded motion, sometimes called the circle spey, to a very sharp angle, it is after all called a snap "T", though maybe it looks like a D in the Klingon alphabet. . They each have their uses. For example the circle spey is great when you are using long and/or heavy sink tips and big flies, etc. because it is a better lifting move. I'd take a look at some videos on snap ts. The two things to remember first time out are make sure you go high enough and then cut low enough when doing the "D" until you get used to it as if you are not careful you will hit your rod with the line. Don't use a fly first time, just yarn. The second one is to come back far enough on you sweep under. Many beginners, and a lot of people who are not, that should know better, don't come back enough. The final position of the rod tip should be almost but not quite point at a 90 degree angle downstream from your intended target. I mention these two because they are by far the most likely errors people make when first learning to do the snap t. Once you have the repositioning move down you can then work on exactly where you want the anchor to lay out. Most people find the basic repositioning move pretty easy to learn. Hope this helps a bit. If you explain more what you mean by the two "Ds" in your OP then we can try to sort that out. I'm not getting that one. Maybe you are trying to ask about doing a river left double spey or snap t. Good luck.

PS. You probably already know this, but you will need to learn both a snap t and a double spey from BOTH sides at a minimum to fish in any wind.

 

Thanks for the reply.

I m casting a single handed rod. So my question is in regards to a single handed rod held by the left hand on the river left situation.

I don't know what a circle C is but from watching some videos it seems to be more inline with what i m doing (they are very similar). So forget the snap T, ill refer to it as a circle C. Sorry for the confusion.

About the "D" shaped movement when creating the anchor (slow lift followed by a rod sweep), I'm new at this and was under the impression it was a common thing to refer to this movement as making the "D" shape with the rod tip. I saw it mentioned this way in a number of videos so thought it would make sense, guess i was wrong.

Ok so back to my question. I'm holding the rod with my left hand on river left. When i make the initial anchor placement should i sweep in a counter-clockwise rotation or a clockwise rotation? Does it matter?

 

Right, I remember reading SH, but then I promptly forgot. Either way the moves are exactly the same, SH or DH, with the rod. Only what your right had does is potentially different.

Always on the snap t high upstream, then low down stream - so from river left alway clockwise, river right always counter clockwise. It very much matters, though I suppose you could go low to high as a trick cast. I'd say try it and you will see. The physics reason I suppose is that the tip of the line has to go further and so has to start higher to fall longer and, you would like, land a bit later or at the same time as the rest of the anchor. At any rate the first move befor the "snap" is always a lift, so high then low.

On the shape, I'd say the way instructors (I am definitely NOTOne btw) refer to the motion might be more of a "v" or flat "U" so as to avoid confusion with the all important "D" loop on the sweep. But there is no problem with calling it a D. Depending on you style it might be close to a kind of zigzag mark of zoro type thing, and the is actually yet another morph of the snap to called a snap z, but I know exactly what you mean now.

 

Great thanks!

I find when I'm following through downstream to set up my anchor (clockwise) then proceed with the forward cast off my left shoulder. The fly swings across my body close to my face. I'm guessing this isn't normal. When following through upstream (counter clockwise) to anchor my fly i don't get this problem cause the fly is downstream of me the entire time and never crosses my body.

I know its hard to visualize what i m trying to explain but i feel i m doing something very wrong. I m using a 26' head + 10 feet sinking polyleader + 5 feet leader.

 

A snap-t is always an up-river anchor, and you ALWAYS cast with the rod tip and all the line off the anchor side after you sweep into your D loop after the repositioning move, so on river left this is always on the RIGHT side of your body. As a side note you also need for the wind to be either up river or negligible as well. Likewise on a river right snap t you cast over the left shoulder. If you are doing a snap t with your left hand, on river left, you still "cast off the right shoulder", but you will be casting "cack"-handed where your left hand is on the left of your body but the rod (not the line) goes across your body. I'm not sure which of these you are talking about when you say you are doing a left handed snap t on river left "off the left shoulder", but if you are trying to cast with the rod tip on the left side, the usual meaning of "off the left shoulder" then OMG yeah, that is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not even sure if I could do that without drawing blood. Crackhanded on the other hand is a normal cast that people do who do not like to switch hands. Cack handed casts may feel a little cramped, especially with a short SH rod, but should be doable with a little getting used to. One way to definitely fix this situation, and give yourself a bit more room to work is to learn to switch hands - in other words hold the rod in your right hand when you do a snap t from river left, but that involves a bit of work if you haven't done that before. It is easier than most people think, but does take some determined brain conditioning plus time.

But for every spey cast the WHOLE line should be on one side of you at the point you do your power stroke, and if it is windy that needs to be on the upwind side.

 

Im quite confused and get the hint that i m doing something very wrong.

So more background. I am right handed but am also learning with my left hand as well so i don't have to cast "cack"-handed.
So in a river right situation which hand would be better for single hand casting? From what you are saying it sounds like its the left hand i should be using and the right hand for river left situations. This would explain a lot. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

Im right-handed too. When casting single handed on river-left I do either a single-spey or snap-t. On river-right I do a double-spey or a snake-roll cast.

River-right or left does not necessarily have a bearing on what hand to cast single-handed from BTW. But when I want to cast off the left shoulder I simply use my right index and thumb on the butt of the rod and use two-hands instead.

 

Im right-handed too. On river-left I do either a singles-spey or snap-t when casting single handed. On river-right I do either a double-spey or a snake-roll cast.
River-right or left does not necessarily have a bearing on what hand to cast single-handed from BTW. But when I want to cast off the left shoulder I simply use my right index and thumb on the butt of the rod and use two-hands instead.

I was just thinking that it would make me more versatile and since i m just starting its probably best to get all the frustration out at the beginning.

 

Been checking out lots of videos and just found this one.

A reverse snap-T, i guess that's basically what i've been doing. He also refers to the anchor placement as a "D" shaped too.

 

Going through one thing at a time. On which hand to use - you can hold the rod with either hand. Your MUST cast off the shoulder where your anchor lies, but you CHOOSE which hand to hold the rod (or upper hand in the case of 2H rod). The pros and cons - for people who can't or otherwise do not desire to switch hands then using the same hand works. For people who can change hands many will choose to cast with the HAND on the same side of their body where the anchor is - in other word NOT to cast cackhanded. While some people can cast cackhanded really well, not doing so will give you a little more room and this will for a lot of people result in more control and more power, but if you learn to do them in most cases it does not matter enough to make a difference. In some cases however, such as trying to cast a single spey with longish line doing so cackhanded may almost be impossible.

The problem with the video is that it is NOT of a snap T, the anchor is downstream not up stream. For whatever the reasons, which we can get into or not, the "reverse snap T" is a fringe cast. I'd like to call it a specialty cast, but I'm not sure is solves any special problem. I have no problems with fringe casts, and am fond of and use several of them myself. The usual cast that would be done with a down stream anchor are, as fishon already mentioned, the double spey and the snake roll. Basically the repositioning move more or less gets the downstream anchor set up the same as a double spey would in same situation.

Probably best to learn the basic casts first, if only to make sense of the terminology. The usulal route nowadays is to learn to do the double spey and snap t from BOTH sides of the river. Then you can fish. Next, in place of, or at the same time you probably should learn to do single speys and snake rolls. These tend to be a bit harder to learn, but are really fun. You should at least know how these 4 cast are done even if you can't execute them all with confidence. That way it is easier to talk about things without confusion.

We could get into the pros an cons of the reverse snap t, but it may be simpler in the context of learning to do then casts you will need to fish to do the conventional snap T. Ultimately of course what ever works for you and what ever you like best is what you can use in the near future. I know a lot of us mix the casts up almost on a cast to cast basis, sometimes just to keep from getting bored. If you want to be able to fish in any kind of wind the you need at a minimum of 4 distinct casts, upmand downstream anchor cast from both side of the river. Hope that help a little.

So the video above is not a snap t, it is a downstream anchor cast, and so should probably compaired and contrasted with the other downstream anchor cast the double spey and snake roll.

Here is a video of a normal snap T by the way....

 

Turn It into a drinking game. Each time you feel frustrated take a shot. Rinse and repeat until the frustration vanishes.

On weird cast variations, I've heard Dec Hogan say said that initially they did not know what a snap T was, and they did something they called the triple spey. They knew how to do a double spey so they would cast/throw the head straight up stream from the hang down, and then just do a double spey as if the river was going the opposite direction. So triple spey. LOL

 

Thanks Botsari, you have been extremely helpful. I will learn the 4 casts mentioned by fish0n and hopefully get proficient. I don't plan on learning the "reverse snap-T" from the video its just i didn't know what i was doing

 

As a beginning caster, it's useful to define goals and then adjust as you go. Your skill increases as you get experience, through the neuromuscular training and habituation that repeated, consciously correct casting form will give you over time.

There are those who disagree with me on this, but it never stopped me from repeating it; desire to do it all! Be like a kid in a candy store with casts and variations. There's a whole big world of flying string to explore.

BUT.

You must learn the basics of what makes a good cast. The loop tells the tale, man. When you run into trouble, go back to the basics. Slow down. Mind your anchor. Wear your eye protection and pinch your barbs without fail so you can get that 1.5 AJ out of your neck. Learn to "go dead" and allow the cast cycle to drop when things go kooky with your setup. Don't power your way out of a crap cast, reset and do it again instead, and properly. Your body will thank you.

That last one was definitely a "do as I say, not as I do" moment. :saevilw:

My fishing pard, (who's the best caster you've never heard of), gave me some good advice when I was struggling in the beginning- he said, "treat every cast as a discrete event". Every cast cycle is a fresh start.

Another bit of advice is to enjoy the suck. In the beginning, you're going to suck and that's OK. Enjoy the river time, laugh at your mistakes when you want to beat yourself up, and manage that inner talk. It's all dues.

Last piece of advice is to go fishing with good casters every chance you get. Be a casting voyeur. Emulate the things you see that seem to work. Get tips. And most of all, have fun!

 

Another bit of advice is to enjoy the suck. In the beginning, you're going to suck and that's OK. Enjoy the river time, laugh at your mistakes when you want to beat yourself up, and manage that inner talk. It's all dues.

Spaz's Life Lessons right there. #1.

Enjoy the process of learning. Embrace sucking, and trust that it will eventually come clear and you'll get better. And the best part is, you can always keep getting better.

 

One of my mentors extended the "take every part seriously" to roll casting to get your anchor laid out straight during practice. He would say "don't treat the roll out as a throw away cast, do it right with no slack and a nice crisp stop, don't do 2 or more crap cast to get it right, etc". Even on those "throw away" moves he pointed out if we were practicing bad technique it would reinforce bad technique. But it is equal part mental altitude - as soon as you say in your head that something is "good enough" those things stop getting better, even if you are hoping they will mraculously get better by themselves.

 

Thanks Botsair,

I've been practicing a lot on the river without a hook (don't want to get distracted with fish), maybe too much cause spey casting is all i think about. I agree with everything you have said about learning, it will take some time thats for sure.

I've been working on all 4 casts mentioned by fish0n4evr.

I feel ok about most of them and am working on consistency. I find the double spey to be the most difficult for me, mainly because i m blowing my anchor half the time and it makes the loud whistling noise.

Also regarding the loops, what is the reasoning for a really open loop? Is it a result of a slow forward cast? Should i be flicking my wrist forward at the end of the forward stroke?

I've also recently picked up a switch rod, hoping by learning on both i can become a better caster.

 

I feel ok about most of them and am working on consistency. I find the double spey to be the most difficult for me, mainly because i m blowing my anchor half the time and it makes the loud whistling noise.

Also regarding the loops, what is the reasoning for a really open loop? Is it a result of a slow forward cast? Should i be flicking my wrist forward at the end of the forward stroke?

I've also recently picked up a switch rod, hoping by learning on both i can become a better caster.

You might begin the forward cast too early and anchor blows. Use just enough back cast power to form a nice D-loop and wait long enough. Begin forward cast smoothly puling rod and in the end use wrist but not until your forearm has reach upright posigion. Haul roughly doubles line energy when timed right which is very late because then haul accelerates already fast line. Haul should never finish before rod has staightened.

Very wide loop can come because of Tailing Loop. The top part of line loop is called a fly leg and it should be as straight as possible.

Esa

 

Thanks bender, i tried pausing more before my forward stroke but was finding the line was hitting the water and ruining my cast.

I took a video of myself with my dashcam, quality isnt great and its kind of a bad angle. but thought it's probably a lot easier than trying to explain what i m doing. Please provide every criticism you have, its the only way i can learn. This goes for everyone that can take the time to view this (~3 mins), if you see something that i m doing wrong please comment.

Circle Spey @ 0:08
Snake Roll @ 0:47
Double Spey @ 1:27

 

Sorry to say but I am not able to open this youtube link!

Esa

 

i think its fixed now, sorry.

 

On the open loop issue: single or double handed rod, short or long line, skagit or Scandi, the features of a good power stroke are exactly the same - acceleration to a crisp stop. Taking a glance at the video you don't usually have much of the latter, so that is enough by itself to explain the open loop issue. It's the same stroke you would use overhead casting. I know an instructor who always starts by having his students overhead cast their spey rods to drive home this point. Maybe try that and see if it helps as an exercise.

The other basic enemy of a nice loop, and basically everything else, is slack. Too much slack will tend to lead to an attempt to compensate by a longer stroke, so slack and a bad stop are often related. There are a few more ways to get slack too in a spey cast. So for example, on your snap after the repositioning move your rod tip lifts straight up. Instead try starting with your rod tip very close to the water and sweep from that point, angling smoothly up. In a spey cast, or any fly cast for that matter, control largely depends on everything smoothly speeding up. Check some videos of people casting a nice loop and you can absorb some of this by feel.

All those things will get better in time, but I'd say try to get a bit more "thunk" in your power stroke. Stop higher and with more authority. Besides doing a few overhead casts to convince yourself of the correct tempo to do this, another good exercize is to do switch casts to warm up, and whenever you start loosing that "feel" for the line.

There are lot of things here, but to mention just a few more, you are not actually doing a circle spey/snap t because you are not changing directions. The starting position is always and for any cast with your rod near the surface pointed at a line that is laid straight out and tight. Since you are lucky to have nice river to practice on maybe step out more into the current, but if you practice on still or slack water take more care about getting the start lined up right. Otherwise you are practicing bad form, and you start from the beginning with slack.

 

There is no proped D-loop on any cast when line is short and you place the anchor far. You should go back to basics and Roll Cast concentrating lifting line slowly and bringing rod back low first to 2 o'clock and then advance to 3 o'clock (horizontal) and forward casting stroke comes long. Use also longer leader about 15ft of 20lbs nylon and you can cast a bigger D-loop and there comes more line mass behind rod tip which to accelerate. Then advance to Jump Roll and then to Single Spey beginning to turn the cast little at a time.

Yes start Sustained Anchor Sweeps rod tip almost touching water and use rising plane and stop abruptly and you can control where the D-loop goes.

This link has about 30 years old Underhand Spey casting video where Göran Andersson casts and teach single hand casting. It is very easy to do an Underhand style Single Spey when line head is short and leader is long and the back cast to D-loop is done using very upright rod. Although there is no centrifucal force in physics anymore it still exists in Spey and makes leader path good and anchor lands pretty straight towards the following forward cast. You can practise Single Spey Sweep first using only rod length of line out of rod tip and back cast becomes very slow and then lengthen the line little at a time and increase the Sweep speed.

There is also nice Circle Cast in the video without often unnecessary pause after the anchor set. Also Drifting is teached but there comes no pause between actual back cast and Drift when casting and Drift starts immediately after back cast stops. There is no speech or writings but watching video should open the ideas behind Underhand.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LUrujaJ0F34

 

Thanks man! Just watched a video on the switch cast, will definitely practice that one.

I will work on the acceleration to an abrupt stop, i find a lot of the time when my forward stroke is fast i blow my anchor, its probably something else i m doing wrong. I'll try it with your low sweep suggestion.

About the circle spey, i know what you are saying just wanted to show the form. I'll see if i can find a right left situation where i can film.

Also i ll add leader length, i m practicing with a 6' mono leader. Should i be using a 15' mono leader when single hand casting? I normally use a 9' when fishing wets.

 

Leader has big influence to Spey cast efficiency. It makes it possible to cast bigger D-loop and then there comes more line mass to the top of the D-loop and it is what we accelerate when casting and its energy lifts the rest of the line, leader and fly to the line loop.

Longer leader also makes a slim fly which has some weight land further but when fly is big leader can't be very long. For Spey practice you can and should use long leader because it mames casting easier and it apply to sustained anchor (Skagit) casting too.

The anchor should come straight to the following forward cast (180 decee principle) and then straight anchor holds the best and also lifts out of water wasting the least energy. However anchor often comes somewhat to an angle and it slides more or less and sometimes blows completely. Some casts are easier to position anchor right and Snake Roll makes the best t&g anchor for me and Perry Poke makes the best sustained anchor. Therefore for downriver Perry Poke I usually do a Snake Roll anchor set and it makes it better cast than Double Spey but I admit when the wind is strong the Double becomes more consistent.

Esa

 

Here's one of my many problems with the double spey. I m doing a lot of 'figure B' before my forward stroke takes place.

When doing the sweep across should i be moving/re-aligning the end of the head to be like 'figure A'? I found i was blowing my anchor when i moved the end of the line. Can all this be because of my short leader length"

 

Here's one of my many problems with the double spey. I m doing a lot of 'figure B' before my forward stroke takes place.

When doing the sweep across should i be moving/re-aligning the end of the head to be like 'figure A'? I found i was blowing my anchor when i moved the end of the line. Can all this be because of my short leader length"

That looks like a downstream "Bloody L" to me. It happens when the anchor is not brought upstream enough (just off of the casting shoulder) during the initial lift/set-up for the double spey cast. It is different than the Bloody L on the single spey.

 

Nice drawing of a bloody L! You obviously pay more attention than most people just starting, and it's a great trait to have. Leaving a bloody L is probably the first and main error of people learning the double spey, and it is one that is easy to slip into by anyone late in the day when tired.

Yes absolutely, as you do the sweep into the ready to fire position the whole line including the sinktip (or leader), and tippet all the way to the fly should get pulled into a straight line parallel to your target like in drawing A. For example in the first video by Bill Lowe he talks about seeing the front of the line turn that 90 degrees before firing the forward cast. You can get a blood L doing the snap T as well.

The cause of B for those two types of casts, as fishon said above, is improper placement of the initial anchor. On the double spey it is because you didn't flop your line upstream enough to match the final direction of your cast, so instead of pulling all of you anchor into a straight line, the front part is still pointing in the starting direction.

Maybe I missed it, but exactly what line are you using and what is attached to it? It is more the kind of error that might tend to get exacerbated by too long a leader, but this particular error is probably not due to your line and leader set up.

 

Here's my setup

Rod: SH 9' Rod
Line: Airflo Switch w/ 27' head
Leader: Non tapered Mono 15'

Just an update, after practicing some more yesterday, paying very close attention to my forward stroke and sweep i found the double spey to be a lot better, faster line speed and a better loop. Still needs a lot of work but i m getting somewhere. Thanks yall.

I was doing more 'figure B' when i had the short leader because i kept blowing my anchor when trying 'figure A' leading into the forward stroke. After adding the 15' leader on its not happening nearly as much but is still happening. Its probably exactly as you guys are saying, my anchor placement needs to be adjusted and placed further upstream. I will give that a try next time. Thanks again.

 

Well, I suppose the usual recommendation for spey casting is to use a tapered leader about the lenght of the rod plus a few feet of tippet, so maybe cut back a little. What you loose in geometry here using a long leader probably doesnet get compensated enough by the gain in added anchor stick. Blowing your anchor is just something you learn to avoid over time, and by always watching your anchor while you cast so you have the feedback to learn the correct speed, etc. You are using a pretty wispy front end, so the difficulty level is increased. When you practice to make things a little easier you might consider using a 10' intermediate polyleader and/or a lightly weighted fly with the barb cut off. Ultimately is it best to use what you want to fish with, but this might give you a leg up while learning. If you have the option available to use a heavier line and/or sinking tip then you might find it easier to learn with that, and then work your way back to the setups that require more finesse, like the one you are using.

Anyway, when blowing anchors go slower, sweep lower, sweep smoother, sweep closer. You will eventually get the feel and balance down.