The mention of granny knots made me chuckle... Brought back some memories.

An ex-farmer coworker used to say, "If you can't tie a knot, tie alot!"😄

 

The mention of granny knots made me chuckle... Brought back some memories.

An ex-farmer coworker used to say, "If you can't tie a knot, tie alot!"😄

Thanks for the laugh.
I had not heard that saying before--although we certainly practiced the theory a lot!

 

You could do a simple 1 single surgeon and put a drop of zap a gap on it Dave Whitlock has been doing this since the 80s although personally a double surgeons is as easy as it gets

 

I think the Whitlock's idea is a good one if you tie your leaders on your workbench. It would be a little difficult while standing crotch deep in the river holding your rod. Also, I I'd prefer not to carry a bottle of zap-a-gap in my sling pack.

 

Gotta heavily edit this post because I misunderstood the original.

First test I joined 10 and 12 lb ultragreen using both versions of the knot. Head to head, the standard two-turn surgeon was stronger 4 times in a row. Head to head test involved tying both versions in daisy chain (12 - 10 - 12) and pulling apart to see which fails first.

Second test I realized the original post was about tying a loop knot (not joining two lines). Again 12 lb test, head to head, both versions of the loop knot were very similar in strength. I can see this modified loop knot being especially useful as noted, for tying a loop in heavy running line (where I often use a 2 turn surgeons because it seats small)

 

I’m too old to follow this. I need a diagram. I’ll bet at least a few others do too.

 

Gene, I think it may be my poor ability to explain rather than your age. So here is another attempt. Remember, if you can tie a double surgeon's knot, you can tie this simple knot.
step one: simply tie a single surgeon's loop but leave it loose like you would if you were going to continue into a double surgeon's
step two: hold the loose knot in one hand and pull the tag end (the short end) snug, but not tight. The cinch loop will still be there, but it will consist of only one strand now
step three: proceed like you would on a double surgeon's knot through the second time and pull it tight just as you would on a double. You now have a more compact knot
that won't fail.

The only difference between this and the double is, when you pulled it through the second time, the cinch loop consisted of only one strand instead of two.

I hope this makes sense!

 

For illustration purposes, here's a picture of a improved surgeons loop and a double. Both loops were pulled as tight as I could pull them by hand. To be fair, these are tied on an old ambush running line that I cut off so I could use a mono running line instead. Also, even a single surgeon's loop tied with this stuff would be unlikely to fail and when tied on mono both the difference in size and the total size would be smaller.

 

Because arthritis is making my fingers less nimble, I'm always looking for an easy, dependable, and compact loop knot for leaders and shooting line connections.

I believe my variation of a surgeon's knot is a good one as I've been using and testing it for a year or so. It's so simple for those who use double and triple surgeon's knots that no diagram is needed: You simply stop after running the master loop through the first time, pull on the tag end a bit to reduce the size of the associated cinch loop, and run the master loop through only the remaining large loop the second time. It's the same as tying a double surgeons except you drop one loop the second time through. It's important you don't drop the mainline loop.

The finished product is smaller and, I believe, stronger.

I've always thought the principle of the double and triple surgeons was developed because running parallel lines in any knot defeats much of the wrap friction associated with high strength / quality knots. That is likely overcome by redundancy--thus the double and triple. It reminds me of when we were kids and we discovered that, with enough back-to-back granny knots, you could move anything.

In decades of pursuing native rainbow trout and both hatchery and native steelhead the most frequent tackle failure I experienced was failure of the three-turn-surgeon tippet to leader knot. That is until I learned from Jim Vincent and his knot guru at RIO Products that a four turn surgeon knot was stronger than the triple. I found it to be true and only use the quad which eliminated the leader to tippet point of failure.

To the subject of this thread, surgeon knot tying difficulty is for me a function of the size of the initial loop. If I use a first turn/loop of 3 inches, the knot is easily tied with any number of turns. Don't try to save tippet material when tying knots--it makes things difficult in cold weather standing in a river.

 

In decades of pursuing native rainbow trout and both hatchery and native steelhead the most frequent tackle failure I experienced was failure of the three-turn-surgeon tippet to leader knot. That is until I learned from Jim Vincent and his knot guru at RIO Products that a four turn surgeon knot was stronger than the triple. I found it to be true and only use the quad which eliminated the leader to tippet point of failure.

To the subject of this thread, surgeon knot tying difficulty is for me a function of the size of the initial loop. If I use a first turn/loop of 3 inches, the knot is easily tied with any number of turns. Don't try to save tippet material when tying knots--it makes things difficult in cold weather standing in a river.

I may not have been as clear as I could have been, but the subject was intended to be two part--first to tie an easy knot and the double, triple, and quad surgeons knot all fit that category (as Captcaveman pointed out "if you can't tie a knot, tie alot"). Second, since a wad of knots creates more sink-rate killing drag than a small knot, the objective is to find a loop knot that is both stronger and smaller than a double while remaining easy to tie and remain tied.

Successful knots are about creating as much friction creating holding power as possible with a minimum amount of bulk. Tying any knot using parallel adjacent lines to create the needed friction is counterproductive in the first place. The surgeons knot partially mitigates that fault by using the "tie alot" principle--thus the double, triple, and quadruple.

A good example is the simple bowline knot. It produces massive holding power in a very small package. Its strength exceeds the strength of nearly any line on which it is used. The beauty and the problem is that it unties easily when tension is removed--otherwise we'd all be using it for fishing.

 

Video

 

Terminology:

The regular surgeon’s knot has 2-turns. Just call it a surgeon’s knot, or be specific with a 2-turn surgeon’s knot, or double overhand knot. Do not call it a double surgeon’s knot.

A regular surgeon’s knot has 2 turns. A double surgeon’s knot has 4 turns.