Ed Wards response and some Skagit casting errors - Spey Pages
 23Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 02:40 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Ed Wards response and some Skagit casting errors

Errors and commentary are compliments of me.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 03:51 AM
flailing less
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North fork Stillaguamish
Posts: 486
Good work sir--closing the loop, so to speak. Anyone who can't understand Ed's interpretation now doesn't want to or doesn't deserve to.
Rick J and SkagitMiester like this.

Just because no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist...


Charter Member, Flailers Anonymous
yoda1 is offline  
post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 06:31 AM
Registered User
 
Botsari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,935
I like the answer, and the blog post. I would add that in terms of physics the tension in the line can not only be created by the action of the tip on line, but on the internal forces as the line moves. I'd just remind people who may have an overly simplistic idea of tension they got from solving all those pulley and sliding block problems from freshman physics that the tension in a line is not uniform along its length when the line is accelerating, and itself has mass. I think that confusion may have some part in the ongoing "debate".

If one part of the line is accelerating or decelerating in a curvilinear manner relative to another part there will be tension in the line due to the forces of those parts on each other. So if the rod is unloaded for a moment it only means that the force (and hence the tension) on that end of the line momentarily vanishes, not that the tension vanishes throughout the line - in other words the line is not just falling at that point in time. Depending on your point of view I realize that this may be either a useful way to understand the issue, or totally obvious and/or trivial. Annoyingly incomprehensible is a third possibility.

So for a cast like a switch cast, and to a lesser degree a single Spey there is a point where most of the line is already shaped by prior forces, and is (mostly) falling and therefore mostly NOT under tension throughout ts length. For a skagit style cast things may be different, and I think someone very experienced such as Ed might be able to intuit this tension, even though it doest exist for a moment right at the end of the head attached to the rod. After all, the caster sees the result of what is going on, and how he can effect things, and as done many tens of thousand of casts. If I see my dog catch a frisbee I can very well intuit the force of it jaws snapping shut on the disk, despite the fact I don't feel it myself.

So, and I'm not saying I'm %100 sure of the answer, I would guess if you plotted the tension along the whole line, and not just the tension at the tip of the rod, you would tend to see skagit casts have a higher degree of tension right up until the power stroke because the of greater amount of differential acceleration between the line's parts, while for many other casts, including touch and go casts, the tension (and the acceleration that is the source of it) largely vanishes THOUGHOUT the line some time before the power stroke.

Now I have said this before in less precise terms, so I apologize for saying it again, but especially for playing the physicist card.
Rick J, gcarlson and SkagitMiester like this.
Botsari is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 06:44 AM
Registered User
 
Cloner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Poland
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botsari View Post
... you would tend to see skagit cast have a higher degree of tension right up until the power stroke ...
Could you please explain to me what the "skagit cast" is? Because I've never heard of nor seen one
SkagitMiester and IAflyer like this.
Cloner is offline  
post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 06:53 AM
Registered User
 
Botsari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
Could you please explain to me what the "skagit cast" is? Because I've never heard of nor seen one

Obviously, as someone from the PNW, I'm going to say sustained anchor casts a la Ed Ward.

Or if you prefer the substitution "Ed style" SA casts.
Botsari is offline  
post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 07:56 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,919
In practise there is a line loop running! When Touch&Go cast the fly leg of line loop flyes is in the air underhand like in an Oval Cast and on a Sustained Anchor cast the fly leg of line loop runs in water surface and line loop energy keeps the line tension but line loop energy lessens. Then line tip lands to an anghor on T&G cast and line somewhat straightens in SA cast anchor and line loop energy ends.

Esa
bender is online now  
post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 11:24 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: steelhead country
Posts: 1,273
One of the problems for me...

... in discussing Skagit casting, is that I am just one person presenting an opinion, via the internet, to an audience of "many". That audience is interpreting what I say through many, many differing perspectives, each one unique to itself, yet I can realistically reply only through my own singular perspective. In other words, for me to tailor my responses to fit or match for correct interpretation, the perspective of every individual that reads my "stuff", just isn't possible. Just something to keep in mind about internet-based discussions.

I would suggest that "interpretations" of Spey-type casting, are as subject to individual perspectives as anything else. But, I also believe that Sustained Anchor casting has genuinely different requirements than does T&G casting because it has different casting characteristics and that thérefore "tuning" one's casting technique to those particular differences will result in increased performance capabilities. Most of those "tuned" casting techniques are "small" in appearance, but when all added together into one congruous casting process, result in a substantial increase in casting performance. As an example, Skagitmeister, in your Skagit casting vids presented in relation to this thread, look at how the line lifts off of the water at the very beginning of your Sweep, then compare that with how it lifts off the water at the very beginning of the Sweep for the casts in my vid (except cast #6). What difference do you see?

Riveraddict
Riveraddict is offline  
post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 11:32 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 412
Skagit cast = any sustained anchor cast with a Skagit head.
V-Loop is online now  
post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
Could you please explain to me what the "skagit cast" is? Because I've never heard of nor seen one
Here, I made this just for you.
foreach71 and IAflyer like this.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SkagitMiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deschutes
Posts: 2,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riveraddict View Post
... in discussing Skagit casting, is that I am just one person presenting an opinion, via the internet, to an audience of "many". That audience is interpreting what I say through many, many differing perspectives, each one unique to itself, yet I can realistically reply only through my own singular perspective. In other words, for me to tailor my responses to fit or match for correct interpretation, the perspective of every individual that reads my "stuff", just isn't possible. Just something to keep in mind about internet-based discussions.

I would suggest that "interpretations" of Spey-type casting, are as subject to individual perspectives as anything else. But, I also believe that Sustained Anchor casting has genuinely different requirements than does T&G casting because it has different casting characteristics and that thérefore "tuning" one's casting technique to those particular differences will result in increased performance capabilities. Most of those "tuned" casting techniques are "small" in appearance, but when all added together into one congruous casting process, result in a substantial increase in casting performance. As an example, Skagitmeister, in your Skagit casting vids presented in relation to this thread, look at how the line lifts off of the water at the very beginning of your Sweep, then compare that with how it lifts off the water at the very beginning of the Sweep for the casts in my vid (except cast #6). What difference do you see?
You peel yours off the water pretty quick, where as I just lift mine and get almost Zero peeling action. I agree it is faulty for getting more out of sweep Skagit style, which may be why I don't get the umph in my sweep and the anchor is on the heavy side.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

www.linespeedjedi.com
SkagitMiester is offline  
post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 12:31 PM
Registered User
 
Cloner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Poland
Posts: 75
Thanks for clarifying guys. If I get it right it takes a skagit head to make a skagit cast. And it must be waterborne cast as a prerequisite.

Then how do you call a single spey cast, switch cast or snake roll cast using skagit head?

And how would you call a cast using RIO Scandi Body (500gr 23ft exactly the same length as RIO Skagit Max 500gr) with a sink tip using waterborne anchor (let's say perry poke) and not using a tip to build a D-loop? Is this Skagit cast, Scandi cast or neither? Or maybe it's simply called perry poke cast?

Last edited by Cloner; 12-10-2016 at 02:56 PM.
Cloner is offline  
post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 12:47 PM
Registered User
 
Rick J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern California until I retired - now home waters are where the fish are - retired and living in a 32' Artic Fox trailer
Posts: 2,732
So Ed explain why a sustained anchor cast works well with the tip up high and flat through the entire process as opposed to down low with a slight rising angle. It works as you showed it to me - certainly need to keep off the gas but a very relaxed easy cast. Not much of a white mouse developed with it. It does still have torsional acceleration as opposed to linear so this likely contributes

Best,
RJ
Rick J is offline  
post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 12:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post
You peel yours off the water pretty quick, where as I just lift mine and get almost Zero peeling action. I agree it is faulty for getting more out of sweep Skagit style, which may be why I don't get the umph in my sweep and the anchor is on the heavy side.
Ed also starts his sweep with the rod tip on/in the water.
V-Loop is online now  
post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 01:20 PM
Registered User
 
gcarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Idaho/Montana/BC
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botsari View Post
I'd just remind people who may have an overly simplistic idea of tension they got from solving all those pulley and sliding block problems from freshman physics that the tension in a line is not uniform along its length when the line is accelerating, and itself has mass. I think that confusion may have some part in the ongoing "debate".

If one part of the line is accelerating or decelerating in a curvilinear manner relative to another part there will be tension in the line due to the forces of those parts on each other. So if the rod is unloaded for a moment it only means that the force (and hence the tension) on that end of the line momentarily vanishes, not that the tension vanishes throughout the line - in other words the line is not just falling at that point in time. Depending on your point of view I realize that this may be either a useful way to understand the issue, or totally obvious and/or trivial. Annoyingly incomprehensible is a third possibility.
Now I have said this before in less precise terms, so I apologize for saying it again, but especially for playing the physicist card.

For me it makes more sense to think of the line as having momentum created by the force of the rod while power is being applied to the line. Tension is "the state of being pulled tight" while momentum is "the impetus gained by a moving body". I can visualize the rod tip being pulled or pushed forward, depending on casting style, creating tension in the line which creates the momentum or forward movement of the line. The tempo of our casting power application then varies between the line being "in power" or "out of power". When the line is "in power" from full forward movement of the rod tip momentum is being created which allows the line to continue forward without slack while power application decreases or ceases while the rod tip turns the corner and the line is "out of power". With sufficient momentum the line can be guided around the corner to it's new direction where it then becomes "in power" again.
Therein lies the importance of learning by practice and experience the necessary tempo of ones casting stroke to apply and feather the power application to create sufficient line momentum which then eliminates slack. The debate about whether or not there is "constant motion" must include the importance of tempo of the cast to create sufficient momentum in the line to prevent slack.
Just my $.02 worth.
gcarlson is online now  
post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 01:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
Then how do you call a single spey cast, switch cast or snake roll cast using skagit head?
A bad idea. ... Unless the Skagit head is very short, underweight (rod underlined), with a long tapered tip, long leader, and with an unweighted, slim fly attached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
And how would you call a cast using RIO Scandi Body (500gr 23ft exactly the same length as RIO Skagit Max 500gr) with a sink tip using waterborne anchor (lets say perry poke) and not using a tip to build a D-loop? Is this Skagit cast, Scandi cast or neither? Or maybe it's simply called perry poke cast?
Rio designates the 500 grain Scandi body as a 10-weight and the 500 grain Skagit MAX as a 7-weight. That should tell you that they designed the former for airborne casts and the latter for waterborne. Also, their profiles are entirely different.

Anyone can cast any head any way they choose, with any tip and/or leader and any fly they want. Some combinations work a lot better than others. Find what works for you and enjoy. I enjoy all three styles of Spey casting.

Do you own a Skagit head, Cloner? I can't tell if you are trolling or not.
V-Loop is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ed wards dvd kensp1947 Casting Video 0 09-07-2009 11:23 PM
Casting errors from a poorly balanced rod? Barney General 5 03-18-2005 11:17 PM
Ok SO I am a little slow... (ED Wards Letter) roballen General 1 08-02-2002 05:33 AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome