Winging It
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I thought the flies looked great, but I am definitely in the "rank beginner" category when it comes to spey type flies. I am very curious, (strictly from a need to learn this stuff standpoint), why you recommend the Blue Heron hooks here instead of the Jacksons? And why the blind eye as an even better choice? Purely aesthetics (and if so, why)? or is there something more mechanical at the root of your recommendation (ie, better hook-ups). Much like a tour through an art gallery, one's appreciation can often be enhanced if one knows what to look for.
Jim
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These will do - My money's on the Lady Caroline.
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The hooks I mentioned have longer shanks. Aesthetics is one thing but when you consider property keeling spey flies or any kind low set wing flies weight of the hook bend that is positioned further helps flies ride straight. I've burned my fingers before.
Here is Grey Heron on HE2 (note how far the bend is, it really helps such flies ride true even in faster water):
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those be painted on wings.
tight tying, mate. lady c for me as well.
cheers,
shawn
tight tying, mate. lady c for me as well.
cheers,
shawn
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552 Posts
Many thanks, makes sense to me now! Never would have guessed that as the reason!The hooks I mentioned have longer shanks. Aesthetics is one thing but when you consider property keeling spey flies or any kind low set wing flies weight of the hook bend that is positioned further helps flies ride straight. I've burned my fingers before.
Here is Grey Heron on HE2 (note how far the bend is, it really helps such flies ride true even in faster water):
Jim
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734 Posts
Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. Domantas, as it happens I just got a package of Blue Herons yesterday, so I'll give them a whirl. Lovely grey heron, by the way. Where do you get your blind eye Partridge hooks? Thanks again.
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May be that the pattern would benefit from a longer slimmer hook, but those wings, tightly inclined and allowing to see the body is just near perfect ;-)
Søren
Søren
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Deetee fly shop. I bought a 100 of them last time. Very sexy hook for spey and dee styles.
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I keep coming back to these: May have understated earlier just how nice they are.
Speys have not always been tied on long shanks. Plenty of examples out there but the Glasso series comes right to mind. So when a spey is observed to roll over it makes me wonder what is really going on. It's about a careful balance between spareness, wing and collar, and amount of material underside of the fly.
Domantas,
Have you noticed - the Partridge HE2 are the same hook as the returned-loop? Or that the Alack Jackson Spey and Blue Heron Spey hooks follow nearly the same template? The 3/0 AJ spey hook is the same size as the Blue Heron Spey No.1 spey hook. Only the latter sports a finer finish, finer point, barb, and return loop.
Speys have not always been tied on long shanks. Plenty of examples out there but the Glasso series comes right to mind. So when a spey is observed to roll over it makes me wonder what is really going on. It's about a careful balance between spareness, wing and collar, and amount of material underside of the fly.
Domantas,
Have you noticed - the Partridge HE2 are the same hook as the returned-loop? Or that the Alack Jackson Spey and Blue Heron Spey hooks follow nearly the same template? The 3/0 AJ spey hook is the same size as the Blue Heron Spey No.1 spey hook. Only the latter sports a finer finish, finer point, barb, and return loop.
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Give Dette Trout Flies a try. GR8LAKES FLYER turned me onto that shop a while back when I was looking for smaller then 2/0 hooks. Most other shops had only the larger sizes where Dettes had them along with other materials I looked for in stock, ready to go all in one package. Quick turn around also.
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Very nice tying, should be a hit with the steelhead too !!
Mike
Mike
fishon4ever,
True Glasso didn't tie his famous spey flies on extra long shank hooks. He tied them on long-shank low-water hooks that were very similar to the Bob Ververka Classic Salmon Hook (the Daiichi 2131) in #'s 2,1, and 1/0. Having talked to Dick Wentworth back in the early 1990's about hooks and why Glasso and he didn't tie on longer-shanked dee hooks. Wentworth told me it was simply because Glasso was not able to find longer-shanked dee hooks, so he used the longer-shank low-water hooks (he preferred Sealy) he could get. I also found out in that conversation that Wentworth preferred to tie his and Glasso's speys on AJ Spey Hooks #3 and 1/0 precisely because the hook shank was longer more like a dee hook.
Therefore, it is pretty clear to me that Glasso didn't tie his spey flies (or Wentworth as well for that matter) on longer dee type hooks for the simple reason he couldn't get them. So they used the hook they could get that had a longer shank in a salmon iron. When I asked Wentworth why they didn't use a 6xl or 7xl limerick bend streamer hook, he told me it was because the streamer hooks did not have loop eyes (and the one that did were way too long and big since they were for the Rangely Streamer flies like Carrie Steven's famous flies used for trolling) and the limerick bend just didn't look right on a spey fly. They wanted either a round bend or Bartleet bend.
My point it that just because Glasso and Wentworth did not tie on dee style hooks it wasn't because they preferred the way the flies looked on the low-water hooks they used, it was because they could not get the longer-shanked dee style hooks. Which means, we need to be careful about making statements regarding the two of them not tying on longer hooks because they wanted the flies to be shorter/smaller. We need to take a look at what was available and not available during the time Glasso was developing and tying his flies.
I've been fortunate to have seen quite a few Glasso tied spey flies and several of Glasso tied classic salmon flies. Despite the popular myth that Glasso never tied a classic salmon fly on a hook larger than a #1, I've held in my hands two Rangers (a BLACK RANGER and a DURHAM RANGER) Glasso tied and the hooks he tie them on were huge, as in #2/0, Carrie Stevens Partridge 10x long, hooks that he cut the eye off of. Both of these flies were framed and had been given to the mechanic from Forks, WA who worked on Glasso's Porche as thank you gifts for keeping his Porche running in top condition. Both these flies were tied in the early 1960's.
In fact, I'll venture to say that until Alec Jackson (and Dave McNeese with the Partridge CS/10, which Dave says Partridge never did correctly) had their respective hooks (the AJ Spey Hook and Partridge CS/10) made by Partridge (yes Alec originally had his hooks made by Partridge, not Daiichi) in the early 1980's, there weren't any suitable, long-shank dee style hooks readily available on the market. There was quite a long number of years where this was the case. So it is no wonder to me at all that Glasso and Wentworth didn't tie on them.
True Glasso didn't tie his famous spey flies on extra long shank hooks. He tied them on long-shank low-water hooks that were very similar to the Bob Ververka Classic Salmon Hook (the Daiichi 2131) in #'s 2,1, and 1/0. Having talked to Dick Wentworth back in the early 1990's about hooks and why Glasso and he didn't tie on longer-shanked dee hooks. Wentworth told me it was simply because Glasso was not able to find longer-shanked dee hooks, so he used the longer-shank low-water hooks (he preferred Sealy) he could get. I also found out in that conversation that Wentworth preferred to tie his and Glasso's speys on AJ Spey Hooks #3 and 1/0 precisely because the hook shank was longer more like a dee hook.
Therefore, it is pretty clear to me that Glasso didn't tie his spey flies (or Wentworth as well for that matter) on longer dee type hooks for the simple reason he couldn't get them. So they used the hook they could get that had a longer shank in a salmon iron. When I asked Wentworth why they didn't use a 6xl or 7xl limerick bend streamer hook, he told me it was because the streamer hooks did not have loop eyes (and the one that did were way too long and big since they were for the Rangely Streamer flies like Carrie Steven's famous flies used for trolling) and the limerick bend just didn't look right on a spey fly. They wanted either a round bend or Bartleet bend.
My point it that just because Glasso and Wentworth did not tie on dee style hooks it wasn't because they preferred the way the flies looked on the low-water hooks they used, it was because they could not get the longer-shanked dee style hooks. Which means, we need to be careful about making statements regarding the two of them not tying on longer hooks because they wanted the flies to be shorter/smaller. We need to take a look at what was available and not available during the time Glasso was developing and tying his flies.
I've been fortunate to have seen quite a few Glasso tied spey flies and several of Glasso tied classic salmon flies. Despite the popular myth that Glasso never tied a classic salmon fly on a hook larger than a #1, I've held in my hands two Rangers (a BLACK RANGER and a DURHAM RANGER) Glasso tied and the hooks he tie them on were huge, as in #2/0, Carrie Stevens Partridge 10x long, hooks that he cut the eye off of. Both of these flies were framed and had been given to the mechanic from Forks, WA who worked on Glasso's Porche as thank you gifts for keeping his Porche running in top condition. Both these flies were tied in the early 1960's.
In fact, I'll venture to say that until Alec Jackson (and Dave McNeese with the Partridge CS/10, which Dave says Partridge never did correctly) had their respective hooks (the AJ Spey Hook and Partridge CS/10) made by Partridge (yes Alec originally had his hooks made by Partridge, not Daiichi) in the early 1980's, there weren't any suitable, long-shank dee style hooks readily available on the market. There was quite a long number of years where this was the case. So it is no wonder to me at all that Glasso and Wentworth didn't tie on them.
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Partridge did make Alec Jackson spey hooks at one point. Or was it the other way around? Either way, it hasn't always been Daiichi. I remember that from very early on and doing a double-take after seeing the Daiichi brand on the A J Spey hook. Dave McNeese has mentioned collaborating with Alec Jackson and Partridge at one point also.
My statement on the Glasso speys isn't about availability or what he may have wanted the flies to look like. It's my response to Domantas about long shanks placing the bend further behind a dressing and keeling the fly that I disagree with. The speys in the original post that Im not defending appear to be dressed on both AJ and Partridge hooks and they stand on their own. The Blue Heron hooks (preferred myself) and the HE2 are great recommendations - but will they make a difference? An extended shank is better at accommodating a spey dressing. But do speys need to be effectively keeled?
My statement on the Glasso speys isn't about availability or what he may have wanted the flies to look like. It's my response to Domantas about long shanks placing the bend further behind a dressing and keeling the fly that I disagree with. The speys in the original post that Im not defending appear to be dressed on both AJ and Partridge hooks and they stand on their own. The Blue Heron hooks (preferred myself) and the HE2 are great recommendations - but will they make a difference? An extended shank is better at accommodating a spey dressing. But do speys need to be effectively keeled?
Thanks for clarifying regarding spey flies not needing to have a long shank for them to right correctly when fished due to a long shank providing more of a keel, which, as you just pointed out, is untrue. For as both of us know, sparseness of the dressing, especially when it comes to not having the spey hackle be too heavy, has more to do with them riding correctly in the water when fished than the length of the hook shank.
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You are welcome Sir. I really was not clear enough in getting that across.
Like you mention and have seen for yourself, there are other accounts of Mr. Glasso tying classics salmon dressing on hooks larger than 2,1, and even 1/0. Silver Doctors, T & L from 1979 and Spey Dogs from as early as '75. I believe he had already developed his spey flies by then. Dick Wentworth told of meeting Mr. Glasso in '54 when he had already adapted many classics to Steelhead not only by color, by size also.
It's worth mentioning when comparing hooks that all are not sized the same. Most often a size 1 is in the middle of a range in sizes of one particular hook and it can be different from another and of the same maker. There might have been an HE2 smaller than 1/0 at one point. I remember seeing something like a 1,2, and 3 while searching for the 1/0 - which is plenty large over all. I did find the Gaelic Supreme HB Dee hook 1/0 at Dette Trout Flies. It is not an extra long shank. It is slightly longer than a Daiichi Dee No. 2 hook that I really like but always wanted in a slightly larger size for dee patterns, and the hook-gaps match. It is not as large as the HE2.
Like you mention and have seen for yourself, there are other accounts of Mr. Glasso tying classics salmon dressing on hooks larger than 2,1, and even 1/0. Silver Doctors, T & L from 1979 and Spey Dogs from as early as '75. I believe he had already developed his spey flies by then. Dick Wentworth told of meeting Mr. Glasso in '54 when he had already adapted many classics to Steelhead not only by color, by size also.
It's worth mentioning when comparing hooks that all are not sized the same. Most often a size 1 is in the middle of a range in sizes of one particular hook and it can be different from another and of the same maker. There might have been an HE2 smaller than 1/0 at one point. I remember seeing something like a 1,2, and 3 while searching for the 1/0 - which is plenty large over all. I did find the Gaelic Supreme HB Dee hook 1/0 at Dette Trout Flies. It is not an extra long shank. It is slightly longer than a Daiichi Dee No. 2 hook that I really like but always wanted in a slightly larger size for dee patterns, and the hook-gaps match. It is not as large as the HE2.
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