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Discussion Starter #1
You are on the left bank of the stream facing downstream. There is a strong downstream wind, 30+ mph. There is brush on the bank and deep water, so you can't wade out far enough to make a good double spey or reverse spiral without getting cought in brush. What is a guy to do?
 

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Junkyard Spey
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TR3, Which cast ? I don't know, but

it sounds like you are discribing the Clearwater over here in Idaho. Maybe like Kush said "a bizzare triple-dipple side-winder cast with my Speydriver to get my fly out 60'!" You ever fish over here around Lewiston or Orofino?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Grande Ronde

MJC
I have been in the same situation on the Clearwater, but today it was the Grande Ronde. Dana, or someone like that must have an answer.
 

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Yikes - that sounds tough. Off-hand I might have to break out the 18' Bruce and Walker and just dap it out there! Barring that I would really have to be there to see what I'd try. Derek Brown demonstrates a single spey in a strong downstream wind that is called a "square-cut" cast. The jist of it is that you you set your anchor out and up from you and cast a little side arm to keep the cast under the wind. While I've monkeyed around with the cast some I am by no means an expert with it. As well, I've done something similar with a spiral roll by starting the "roll action" towards the river rather than to the bank. This sets the anchor well out in front of you and you can keep the loop more or less beside you rather than back behind. I think I'd prefer to attempt this cast in the conditions you describe so as to avoid having the loop blow in on me. Or you could just go for a single malt and call it a day...

To check out the square cut cast you can see it on Derek Brown's video.
 

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Hooked on Salmon
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The situation described is the ultimate nightmare for me too!

Even if the casting can be managed, one way ot another, that darn wird will kill all good mending and probably also sweep the cast away to too shallow an angle.

I try to stick to the "single spey" Underhand with the riverhand being at top. If the going is really nasty I put a really short and heavy head (30-35' of #12-13 line) on and cast it a bit like Kush suggests. The trick is to get the head's anchorage above and slightly out and to shoot off before the D-loop really has formed.
If one pulls hard with the butt hand and aim high the cast will both be with a narrow wedge and ride on the wind. Often a full intermediate or sinking head deals better with bad winds than what a floater/sinktip does. They also fish under the waves without being ripped off the surface and makes one forget about the impossible mends - with them a more shallow angle of presentation is needed anyway.

If this fails I normally can get a "double spray" underhander going. The short head means that little space is needed, so wading often not is critical.

But, please, give me any kind of upriver wind and I will be happy!

"Tight loops"

Per
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Advantage to the head

Per and Kush
Thanks for the ideas. I thought of the "square-cut" of Derek Brown, but wasn't practiced enough to make it work well.

I think this is a situation where the head is a definite advantage, being shorter and heavier per foot. There is less to blow around and it gets through the wind a little better.
 

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Are you familiar with the Snap T cast. By shortening up the amount of line your arielizing and using A sink tip,it is pretty easy.And you can launch A3/0 or4/0 prawn A country mile. This cast will let you set your ancor any where you want it in one move. I have found that with the wind at my back, it is better to set the ancor directly up stream rather than out in front of me. this is A little unerving though because the fly is coming right passed your ear ( water in your fase) or right over your shoulder. The cast is much easier to master than it to explaine in this forum.Ask at your home fly shop or A local instructor.

Rick
 

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nasty situation... sounds just like a run called elderberry on the lower deschutes. overhanging trees upstream, downstream, and behind, right off the bank, you are at "simms" depth, and the fish are only about 60 feet away, straight across the bank. here in the river, the wind can be blosing hard upstream, or downstream, and either is a mess!

i have used the technique kush suggests. especially with a good rod that you can cast off the tip, you can set up your snake roll with the grip a good 15 to 20 feet in front of you and keep the "d" loop no further back than yourself (and out of the bushes). a good lean into the river, and very underhanded dominated power stroke delivered more sidearm (keeps the line under the wind a bit), and the cast is on it's way, although too much sidearm a delivery will cause the fly to end up upstream of the line, compounding your meding difficulties. the flow at elderberry is slow, so even if the fly ends up upriver, it is no big deal...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Blackberry

spey_bubba
That soulds like the run I know as blackberry, above Moody.

I am fairly new to spey casting, so I am still learning to do some of the "tricks" like you and Kush suggested. What type of rod and line works best for that? I have the 7136-4, 9140-4 and 10150-4. I have windcutters for all three and the accelarator for the heavier rod.

There are some runs on the Clearwater that put you in the same general situation on one bank or the other.
Thanks for the help.
 

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hello TR3

in tight nasty situations like the one you describe, i really think a long belly line shines. where one has limited opportunity fiddle with the dirft once the fly is on the water, and where the casting room is at a premium, i really think lines which allow you to cast without shooting also have an advantage.

i no longer fish super-short bellied lines like the windcutter or mid-spey, so i can't give you much advice there. i think that without fancy skills, a shorter bellied line potentially make make this particular cast easier, as there is, by definition, less of a backcast possible simply because less line is aerialized. windy conditions, however, make it evan harder to mend once into running line (especially once the fly is committed ot the water).

a short belly expert like per probably has many tricks up his sleeve for a similar situation, but for an average caster like myself, i'll stick by my long belly lines.

all of the rods you mention are fairly slow in action (even the 10151, which has a pronounced hinge point about 40% up the rod). i think the newer (post 2001) 9140 would potentially be the best of the rods you list for very technical casting like this (it reminds me a bit of the scott ARC 1509 in action and feel), where you really have to cast from the tip mid section of the rod. my 7136 is way too soft to get any control regrading where in the rod you would like to cast from, and i think the 10151 doesn't have a good enough tip to tip mid section to pull it off (although there are many that like this rod). again, i am visualizing this one run on the the deschutes... does the run you are thinking of have a tree down in the middle of the run, and is the run just above some Class II-III rapids?

the burkheimer 13'9" 8 weight is an awesome choice for casts like this, and i also like the Scott ARC 1287 and 1509 because i can pretty much cast with any part of the rod i want.
 

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chrome-magnon man
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Hi Ted! Great topic!

I've come across similar problems on the Thompson, on a run we call the Spur. At the top end it is a drop off backed up against a steep bank, and often a nasty wind is blowing downriver. A snake roll is a great call here except that you invariably end up catching your loop in the rocks and brush behind you. I think in this situation (as in pretty much any situation) it again comes down to what you are used to and comfortable with, rods included. A long belly line will work, as will shooting heads of various styles and lengths.

There are a few downsides to long belly lines in such situations, though. The added length of line moving around in a wind acts like a big sail, making it a little more challenging to manage, and it gets tricky using a sidearm cast (to help you beat the wind) with a long belly line because you really have to manage your D loop well and nail your timing; a shooting head gives you a real advantage whenever you are forced to drop your rod tip such as in a side arm cast, because the D loop can be smaller and more compact yet is more easily managed and will effectively load your rod. Another downside to a long belly in such a situation is the overall belly length needed to make a fishing cast. In tight quarters if you are using a long belly line and have to resort to shooting line anyways to hit your target, it doesn't make sense to fight the added weight and friction of the line belly shooting through the rod rings when running line is more efficient.

If I was forced to cast off my upstream side, my solution in this situation would be a classic shooting head and a Perry Poke-style set up with a bit of a kick to it, but with a lower rod position to keep things under the wind, followed by a low sidearm delivery cast. My moves would have to be accelerated to fight the downstream wind, and I'm going to use that kick I mentioned in the upstream positioning of the line to perhaps throw the line a little farther above me, again to help me beat the wind. Otherwise I would use a snake roll or triple spey off my opposite shoulder, being sure to anchor the line well out in the river and minimize the size of the loop behind me.

If I chose a long belly line for these conditions, I think my cast would be the double roll aka the contrived loop (I've also heard it called the Armenian cast) either off my downstream shoulder or reversed. Using this cast might minimize the need to lean too far out as you can make it in very tight quarters with little line behind you. It's a cool cast and great for a long belly line.

But no matter which system I use I'm going to thrash and splash around a lot initially adjusting to the conditions, so the steelhead will probably leave anyways, and probably so should I, but it's great casting practice.
 

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You might try a reverse contrived loop cast using a short belly Wind-Cutter line. Hughes Falkus developed the contrived loop cast for situations where you don’t have as much room behind you as might be needed for a more traditional double spey. If you are using a sinking head you try what I call short-stroking – after you setup for the cast (and have a very good anchor), give the rod a quick “kick” as you begin to form the loop and accelerate quickly into the forward stroke without pausing. This casting style allows you to generate considerable line speed without forming a large D-loop behind you. At any rate, the conditions you describe will present a challenge no matter what casting technique employed!
 
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