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i was just wondering what is the difference between a underhand cast and a spey cast. i was just wondering as i was interested in a meiser switch rod and he said a underhand cast is the best cast to use with this rod. i am a rookie so hope this question isnt to silly. :hihi:
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Hey Scott...

In the subscriber forums Dana has some video clips of the underhand cast. He also has some articles on it in subscriber forums and somewhere I think he has his interview with Henrik Mortensen.
If you do a search you will also find a lot of references to the underhand cast.
I think it is mostly associated with the single spey but you can use the underhand cast principles with all spey casts.
 

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An excellent question and I would think if you travelled back in time and asked Alexander Grant, he would struggle to answer.
To my simple Scottish mind there are four Speycasts, Single, with left hand up, and with right hand up, Double with left hand up and right hand up.
The rest are just minor variations.
 

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Scott,

The underhand cast is, simply put, a cast with a double-handed rod (any make) in which the primary application of power is with the bottom - or underhand - and the top hand is more or less along for the ride during the power phase of the forward stroke.

The other casts which are more traditional, involve either the use of the top hand dominant or a more equal use of both hands to deliver power. They are, in my opinion all speycasts.

As for a rod being "made for underhand" that may be the case but you can use any method to cast today's rods, they will handle all the techniques with relative ease. I have cast Meiser rods and they work very well with all three of the "styles" I mentioned. I just don't think it worth worrying about, whichever rod you are interested in will handle "your" style of casting.
 

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Speyngineer
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Scottd,

Please find here some earlier discussions about the same subject , there is a good description of the evolment of the Anderssons cast (Underhand Cast) by Per Stadigh.

IMHO, it is the same cast as the Single Spey, just made with a short shooting head line. It seems that somehow the Underhand Cast has got more meanings than it originally had, and some people like to generalize it to all casts made with mainly the lower hand. I would like to add, that Göran presents in his book, that Underhand Cast can be made with a singlehand rod, so the role of the lower hand in this case is somewhat strange :D
 

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Lohi,

I have watched Mike Kinney do the single handed "underhand" cast and been instructed in its application. Though it is with one hand it has pretty much the same mechanics. While I do not employ it while single handing it was a cool cast.

Clearly the casting hand becomes the bottom hand and the top one is not there (I guess this is merely the ultimate extension of the underhand method). When I watch someone who is really adept at the underhand style like Dana, I note that the bottom hand motion is very much downward and in motion. Mike's motion with the single hand rod is the same. The forward stroke is a curving drop into the body rather than the traditional punch forward - the underhand stroke in the absence of the over hand.

I do believe the underhand method started with Goran developing one specific cast - his version of the single spey. However, to be an effective fisherman one needs more than a single cast, we need at least four, two for each side of the river - one for upstream wind and one for a downstream wind. With that in mind the successful underhand technique would be applied to all of them.
 

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Speyngineer
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From the casting mechanics point of view, I mostly agree with you Kush, but it is hard for me to accept these new terms and interpretations. The Underhand Cast is the Underhand Cast, developed by Göran Andersson, Sweden, and it is essentially a modification of the single spey, as stated before.

Any cast with a double hander (and obviously also with a single hander) can be conducted with dominant lower hand, and some of us do so. However, the casts we execute, do not change their names according the hand involvement. They still are Overhead Casts, Double Speys, Snake Rolls, Perry Pokes,...

If one wishes to talk about Underhand Method, fine, but that is not the Underhand Cast. IMHO. On whichever side of the pond one might be :D
 

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The Underhand Method

It is interesting that two of the best Underhand casters in the world--Trond & Knut Syrstad of Norway (who now work closely with Goran Andersson at Loop Tackle)--do not refer to their style of casting as "Underhand casting." They prefer the term "Modern Speycasting." Former World Champion flycaster Leif Stavmo of Sweden and Guideline Flyfishing, the designer of the very popular Guideline Power Taper Shooting Head, also does not use the term Underhand casting.

It is unlikely that Goran Andersson developed the Underhand cast in a vacuum. His achievement almost certainly owes a passing nod to the many Spey pioneers who traveled before him. The similarity of the Underhand cast to the Single Spey is well documented. I disagree with the statement that the Underhand cast is simply a method where the under or bottom hand provides most of the power (you could, in fact, say that about all forms of Spey casting). Of course, it is possible to cast a long-belly line using primarily the under or bottom hand to drive the line. It is equally possible, however, to cast a shooting head with a top-hand dominant stroke that is usually more suited to a long-belly line. Neither statement is particularly useful or illuminating.

Goran Andersson developed the Underhand cast as a solution to a very particular set of angling problems confronting him on Norway's River Orkla: the need to cast great distances and the need to cast great distances with a very small or shallow D-loop due to back cast restrictions. All of these requirements are met by a very singular piece of tackle: the shooting head. With a shooting head, the casting weight of the line is rarely drawn into the rod rings (in other words, there is almost always some "overhang"). The mass (shooting head) that delivers the fly is, therefore, beyond the tip of the rod. Because the connection between running line and shooting head is a loop, one can easily change the LENGTH of the shooting head without changing its mass. One simply upsizes the shooting head from, say, a #8/9 to a #9/10, and cuts back the #9/10 from the rear of the shooting head until the grain profile of the 'cut' #9/10 shooting head is the same as the grain profile of the 'uncut' #8/9 shooting head. The angler now has the same mass (i.e. weight) out beyond the tip of the rod, but has a shorter overall length of shooting head.

This scenario is crucial to understanding Goran Andersson's achievement. With a short shooting head, he was able to properly load his rod with a very shallow D-loop necessitated by severe back cast restrictions. As space opened up behind him, or the water dropped later in the season, he could go to a longer shooting head with a finer front taper in order to more easily cast long. Importantly, the mass of the line (i.e. the grain profile) remained the same for BOTH lengths of shooting head. The chart for cutting the new Loop Custom II Series shooting heads, which throws out the AFTMA line designations, illustrates this concept perfectly.

I see the Underhand method as a tackle concept and not simply the application of primary power during the forward stroke with a dominant under or bottom hand. The more quiet top hand and active bottom hand of the Underhand method is derived from the length of the shooting head in use: a strong or dominant top hand makes consistent anchor placement extremely difficult. The Underhand stroke itself evolved out of the need for a very specific set of tackle requirements.

There is great variation in the styles of the best Underhand casters. Compare Knut Syrstad (Norway) with Goran Andersson (Sweden) or Henrik Mortensen (Denmark) with Leif Stavmo (Sweden). But then that is another thread altogether...
 

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"To my simple Scottish mind there are four Speycasts, Single, with left hand up, and with right hand up, Double with left hand up and right hand up.
The rest are just minor variations."
__________________

As another simple Scot, I basically agree with you. My terrible Snake Roll would be the fifth cast.
 

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Complications in our world

We do like to make our little piece of the world as complicated as possible:whoa: don't we?
I believe all opinions previously expressed are in essence correct.

The casts are the casts and basically refer to line placemement prior to the final power stroke (ie:single, double, snake, etc.)

Underhand, top dominant, etc refers to the method of power delivery.

And the method of power delivery is determined by tackle used (specifically line, ie: shooting head,short head, mid/long belly) which in turn is determined by fishing circumstance (ie: backcast room, need for depth, etc.) or simply by personal preference.

In the end maybe it really is not as complicated as we sometimes like to think.:rolleyes:
Just two pennies plus (I hope) a farthing.

Ramsay
 

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Topher ... nice commentary

Q1 : can you supply URLl to LOOP SH Chart ?
Q2: are the scandi DVDs in "englander" ?? sources ???
 

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Jack Cook
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Video yes!

I have the DVDs from Mortensen, all three.
I have both of the Syrstad DVDs

All available in PAL or NTSC mode for North Americans

You can get em at www.irishangler.com

They are all wonderful resources.

There is also a nice sequence with Goran at Spey O Rama last year. I have that DVD also.
 

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Willie Gunn said:
An excellent question and I would think if you travelled back in time and asked Alexander Grant, he would struggle to answer.
To my simple Scottish mind there are four Speycasts, Single, with left hand up, and with right hand up, Double with left hand up and right hand up.
The rest are just minor variations.
And, much easier to teach than the Single Spey and in existence long before the other "minor variations" is the "Highland Switch". Ive just come in from the river trying this with a Skagit line, and it works just as well as with a silk line on a spliced split cane rod.

Regards

Steven
 
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