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Discussion Starter #1
What constitutes a fault is spey casting? If a casters has a good delivery loop (size, shape and direction), but his style is unorthodox, is that a fault?

Klem
 

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I'd say its substance versus style, and not a fault. One could say that Simon's style is unorthadox when compared to Dec or Leif and visaversa, but in reality all function just fine. Style in itself is not a fault, though certain styles may limit ones ability to further improve ones casting.

Bob
 

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Faults

Unorthodox doesn't necessarily mean a fault. As long as the caster
has appiled the proper essentials it isn't a fault. We're all made a
little different and as a result will apply the essentials differently.
Unorthodox to me can represent style. Al Buhr's style might be considered
unorhtodox when compared to Simon's. The styles are different the results
are the same.
Stan
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Faults!

My fault! I was not clear of my question: "What is a fault?" I want to look beyond a castors' style/sustance and be able to identifing an underlying fault(s). Dipping the rod too much on the anchor set-up, letting the line settle on the water before we delivery (line stick), rolling the shoulder causing a domed cast (wide loop), jerky application of power (tailing loops), casting arch to long, rod-hand-line plane not insync (tracking), single hand casting with a two hand rod (too much upper hand) and the list goes on. Those are faults that can be observed and somewhat easy to cure by an instructor no matter what casting style.

What I'm looking for is, is there something beyond style and substance, some hinderence, that makes loops ineffective and inefficient? Could it be a mental thing? A physical thing? An equipment thing? A fatique thing? ????

Klem, a student preparing
 

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F/a/u/l/t/s

Klem,
We've talked about this a lot lately and I think you
may looking for something that is'nt really there. I
liken it to reading between the lines (f/a/u/l/t/s).
Although I'm nowhere near the ability of a good Spey
Casting instructor I'm able to notice most faults. I
know you see them better than I. You might just be
"chasing windmills" on this one.
Stan
 

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chrome-magnon man
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Klem said:
What I'm looking for is, is there something beyond style and substance, some hinderence, that makes loops ineffective and inefficient? Could it be a mental thing? A physical thing? An equipment thing? A fatique thing? ????

Klem, a student preparing
Klem,

I think you're on to something here. At risk of getting a little esoteric, maybe you're considering the Zen of Speycasting ("I know, "the Zen of" is really hackneyed, but oh well...). I certainly believe that mental and physical sharpness plays a huge role in all of this spey stuff. A caster can have the best gear in the world, practice more than anyone, and still throw poor loops and screw just about everything up. (Of course this never happens to me, but I have seen it happen to people who look exactly like me.) If the mind and body are out of sync, the casting is hopeless. I certainly notice this in my own casting and fishing. If I am anxious, stressed or upset in any way I can really see things start to fall apart.

As an instructor I see this in casting students too. If I stand next to a student and work on something with them, it is likely that their casting will not improve until I walk away. Suddenly, what we have been working on comes together and they are casting much better. This is a mental thing. Also, if a student has been working on something for while and it isn't clicking, I'll suggest they hop out of the water and take a break. They are usually back at it again in 10 minutes and suddenly they are casting better. A fatigue thing (and a mental thing too).

I think one of the most important skills an instructor can develop is the ability to understand what their student is experiencing, recognize the signs of stress and fatigue, and then seek ways to reduce them. This ability is at least as important as learning to recognize and correct other sorts of casting faults...and probably even more.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It hit me! A new title

Reading your post, Dana, awaken two things that I couldn't put my finger on and I think the title should be "Beyound the Faults lies Breaking the Habit". First, When working on a fault with a student, the student has a certain level of intimidation with an instructor's eye evaluating every move. The student's concentration is somewhat diluted by the instructor's presence. As an instructor we should be careful to make every student extremely comfortable with our instruction so as not to intimated. We should be invisable. The walking away is one good example of being invisable to the student. Second, the phenomenon of reminiscence should be applied. Reminiscence is a break-of-time in a task where the mind and muscle memory forgets the bad and remembers only the good. Your comment of "take-a-break" is right on. All of us will at some point "take-a-break" - come back to our casting and "walla" our casting improves. Breaks are more important in the learning and relearning process than we think. Apply "Reminiscence" and just maybe the progress will be faster.

Chasing windmills is not something I like to do. Maybe this thread started out as a "windmill" but I think now there is some merit to "Beyond the Faults" or "Beyond the Faults lies Breaking the Bad Habit".

Klem
 

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Discussion Starter #8
What an Observer thinks!

The only time I "observe" is when an individual asks for help. Then I look for faults. If a caster is satified with their casting then let them be. A fault is still a fault even when a caster is satified, Period. i.e., too much line stick, too little line stick, rolling the shoulder, jerky motion, creep (the list goes on) are still faults and makes a cast inefficient and effective even iffff the fly travels beyond the nail knot. I never mention to a fishing friend with a casting fault who is satified with their casting, that they have a casting fault (you can't help but notice over time a fishing partner's casting). It is not my business until they ask for help. A fault is a fault.
Klem
 

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Are Faults Really Faults?

Peter,
I know of many who get get fairly good results
even with some casting faults. An example might be
having a successful double spey starting with a
"bloody ell". I for one can do it by driving the top hand
a little harder and forcing the tip over. The cast finishes
with a well formed loop and on a line straight.
I believe, that in the "purest sense" The cast had
a fault, a "bloody ell" and not a straight anchor (180
degree prinicpal).
Stan
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If you're Happy and you know it cast your spey!

Peter,
Dissecting style to find a fault takes understanding of the elements and applied effort to those elements. This is the step I'm developing as a candidate for the THCI. I'm not looking to change the world only those individual who want a trained eye (that's what I'm working on now: training the eye).... My goal is to understand spey casting elements that make an effective, efficient cast. IF someone is happy with a little creep that is OK with me BUT that caster can develop an more efficient and effective cast by eliminating creep. The end result will be less faitgue, less stress on the casting muscles and maybe more enjoyment on the water.
All that said, I'm with you when you state, "if they're happy nothing more need be said". Peter, your responses has made me think and I appreciate your efforts in challenging my thoughts.

Your comment of: "The learning process is driven by dissatisfaction, not faults"' could be changed to "faults causes dissatisfaction" and the learning process begin.

Klem, a student preparing for the THCI
 

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With form comes function

I think the truth lies in the question "What form needs to be perfected to excell at the cast?"

NFL quarterbacks develop form to be able to do what they do, Tiger Woods developed form, Steve Rajeff developed form. There is obvious proof that in certain endeavors mastering a degree of perfect form in execution is why excellence is achieved. Why would it be any different with Spey Casting?

So, there will be certain motions that the human mind and body must perfect to execute the cast and any deviation in this form will be a fault. Right?

Some are naturals, some must work hard to find it, some work extremely hard and never find it.

The zen beauty of it comes in when the ritual has been done for so long that the man walks to the river, frees his mind and just makes the cast while contemplating, well, whatever, because the master has come to the point when cast and not cast amount to the same thing, young grasshopper!
 

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I know I maybe slhd not say this but it does get to the point somewhat touched on in Dana's Zen reference.Some of the best casting I ever did in the presence of my main Zen Master{one of two][I was lucky,both are great!!!],was when we were talking about his new love .I was booming them to the point where I mentioned that this shld be a new instruction technique!!!!Gets your conscious mind uninvoled with the casting and turns it over to the subconscious which always does a better job if you have properly prepared it!Beau
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Form......

Moose, I think that form is a result of: Understanding the elements of the spey cast, applied energy to those elements, equipment (rod, line and leader) attribute and caster's style. When a caster combines all attributes together you get form and function. It takes practice to combine everything to perfections. Practice is addictive, therefore, the more one practices the better form they should have and the closer to Zen Casting- right?



Moose said:
I think the truth lies in the question "What form needs to be perfected to excell at the cast?"

NFL quarterbacks develop form to be able to do what they do, Tiger Woods developed form, Steve Rajeff developed form. There is obvious proof that in certain endeavors mastering a degree of perfect form in execution is why excellence is achieved. Why would it be any different with Spey Casting?

So, there will be certain motions that the human mind and body must perfect to execute the cast and any deviation in this form will be a fault. Right?

Some are naturals, some must work hard to find it, some work extremely hard and never find it.

The zen beauty of it comes in when the ritual has been done for so long that the man walks to the river, frees his mind and just makes the cast while contemplating, well, whatever, because the master has come to the point when cast and not cast amount to the same thing, young grasshopper!
 

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Klem said:
Moose, I think that form is a result of: Understanding the elements of the spey cast, applied energy to those elements, equipment (rod, line and leader) attribute and caster's style. When a caster combines all attributes together you get form and function. It takes practice to combine everything to perfections. Practice is addictive, therefore, the more one practices the better form they should have and the closer to Zen Casting- right?

That would be it for the average guy, but it leaves out the natural, and they do exist. Also, to be a truly Zen-like experience, all those elements- the micro dissection of equipment, physics, repetition- would have to be forgotten and the oneness of your Self and Rod would come together in an unconscious abillity to work together (thus Dana's comments on walking away and clearing the mind of distraction) that resulted in beauty eminating from something other than your own conscious effort.

The idea of a structured approach such as you suggest would fit more into Plato's world. If you were of the proper class to be worthy of the pursuit perfection would come from:
1) The body- through physical mastery of form from repetition-
2) The mind- knowledge of the mathematical absolutes handed down by the gnostics-
3)The intuitive wisdom imparted from the Gods allowing you to understand the perfection of the archetypes, the perfect spey caster residing in the heavens.

The warrior/caster/ philosopher would then be able to casually make the cast and catch the fish and offer it up to the gods :roll:

Sounds like a lot of work though :razz:
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Klem -

Common Faults:

Lift too high or fast
Trunking bottom hand
Hinging due to excessive overhang of running line
Over-accelerated sweep back to d-loop
Overhand-esque flick of rod tip causing turbulence in d-loop
Anchor placed on wrong side of caster (cross-over at cast)
Slipped anchor
Excessive anchor
Piled anchor
Downriver BloodyL
Upriver BloodyL
Over-rotation
Under-rotation
Excessive dip
Excessive upward force on d-loop formation
Path of acceleration not straight
Rate of acceleration not smooth
Tailing loop
Incomplete turnover
Recoil at end of cast
Hitting the rod
Hitting yourself...

and that's just off the top of my head for the single spey! Such a list could get very long considering all styles and casts.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
low expectations

Peter,
My inquiries to "faults" is for the caster who wishes to improve. There are many casters happy just to get the fly beyond the nail knot, that doesn't bother me. As a student preparing for the THCI, I'm looking, think, delving into the casue of fault(s) and breaking bad habit(s). The actual fault(s) (see Juro's list) is/are the manisfestion of problems in the casting motion. So I'm not concerned with the "happy" caster just those who wish to improve. Klem
 

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I like the zen reference and truly believe there is both a mental and physical aspect to casting but still think that if a cast does not do what you expect and falls apart it all boils down to a casting fault. The fault may be due to stress, being tired or standing next to your zen instructor but you did something wrong to blow the cast. Even the best casters can lose it at times and have to rethink what they are doing wrong and them make corrections. You indicated that it could be the fault of the euqipment and certainly if the equipment is not properly balanced, it will not perform as well as properly balanced equipment
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Response to Juro

Juro,
I really messed up when I first posted the Question, "What are Faults". I was not looking for the list itself or the correction of those faults. I was looking for "Beyond the Fault Lies Breaking Bad Habits" in the casting motion. What I'm working on now is fitting all the faults into categories so when I look at a caster I can break the faults into areas.
I.e., Planes - Rod tip plane, hand plane, line plane.
Elements of the cast: lift, anchor set, line belly form in D/ > loop, circle-up move, key position, smooth application of power with exponential speed-up to the stop, firm transfer of power, and rod tip movement after stop.
Applied effort to each elements: Removal of slack at all points in the cast, Anchor (Bloody, pile, crump), lift slack, key position slack, too much power slack (waves in line) rod tip rebound.
Hand coordination: Trunking (if the rod tip does not go up to the key position but rather aims down to straight back), the lower hand not contributing (single hand casting with the upper hand), applying the shoulder muscles of both shoulder in making an effortless spey cast.
Loops: Have size (non, wide, narrow) shape (tailing, cross, tank track, open), and direction (back as in d/>loops, 180 principle to target, less than or more than 180 degrees to target).
Pre-casts before the delivery cast: Two basic groups of cast “touch/splash and go” and “water load”; Partner cast (single spey or snap cast up stream wind and Double-spey or snake roll for down stream wind); variations to the basic partner cast; anchor position for the 180-degree principle and d-loop formation before the delivery cast.

The momentum and direction of the rod tip, throughout the cast, is governed by the effort applied during that portion of the casting element.

The smooth connection of all elements, from the lift to the settling of the fly on the water, is timing and tempo with applied effort.

Klem, just a student preparing for the THCI and this is a work in progress and can change with or without factual information.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Wife getting Mad!

Too much time not working on the TAXES, she said... I will blame it on, "Honey, all the tax info is not in YET". hee, hee, hee.....

Peter your example, What I would look at is the following: equipment; maybe to short of rod - wants a little more distance increase rod lenght? Line profile choice; and rod action choice. Need to look at all the possibilities. Also, look at the muscle groups being used to produce the cast. Adding more use of the large muscle group (shoulders) will add line speed thereforth gain distance.

This is not meant to answer your question but rather explore what could be the real issue of breaking the 90' 100', 110' or 120' mark. Alot of times we try to do the impossible with wrong equipment and/or style. I.e., I could not even come close to winning the Musto competiton with my 6126 w/Detla line and my medium casting stroke. In fact, I couldn't win it with a cannon.

Rick, I agree with "balance" system in relationship to: style, rod action, line profile choice, leader diameter and length and the caster physical ability to handle the given equipment.

Klem, signing off before wife get back home----TAX TIME!!!!
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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I see; thanks for the explanation. It looks like you are into a serious mode of study that will pay dividends down the road - best of luck with your test when you take it. I just checked in this morning for my speypages fix (offline at Somerset all weekend), saw this post and thought maybe a list of faults might be useful to post into a discussion about casting faults. ;)

Klem said:
Juro,
I really messed up when I first posted the Question, "What are Faults". I was not looking for the list itself or the correction of those faults. I was looking for "Beyond the Fault Lies Breaking Bad Habits" in the casting motion. What I'm working on now is fitting all the faults into categories so when I look at a caster I can break the faults into areas.
I.e., Planes - Rod tip plane, hand plane, line plane.
Elements of the cast: lift, anchor set, line belly form in D/ > loop, circle-up move, key position, smooth application of power with exponential speed-up to the stop, firm transfer of power, and rod tip movement after stop.
Applied effort to each elements: Removal of slack at all points in the cast, Anchor (Bloody, pile, crump), lift slack, key position slack, too much power slack (waves in line) rod tip rebound.
Hand coordination: Trunking (if the rod tip does not go up to the key position but rather aims down to straight back), the lower hand not contributing (single hand casting with the upper hand), applying the shoulder muscles of both shoulder in making an effortless spey cast.
Loops: Have size (non, wide, narrow) shape (tailing, cross, tank track, open), and direction (back as in d/>loops, 180 principle to target, less than or more than 180 degrees to target).
Pre-casts before the delivery cast: Two basic groups of cast “touch/splash and go” and “water load”; Partner cast (single spey or snap cast up stream wind and Double-spey or snake roll for down stream wind); variations to the basic partner cast; anchor position for the 180-degree principle and d-loop formation before the delivery cast.

The momentum and direction of the rod tip, throughout the cast, is governed by the effort applied during that portion of the casting element.

The smooth connection of all elements, from the lift to the settling of the fly on the water, is timing and tempo with applied effort.

Klem, just a student preparing for the THCI and this is a work in progress and can change with or without factual information.
 
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