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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen (and some ladies I hope)

I am anxious to learn the underhand cast but there is little written to guide one (in English in any case).. The line lengths are very much shorter and to my mind are therefore very suited to casting from the bank on deep rivers or on very overgrown riversides. Whilst the lines may be shorter the leaders are longer and are often 25’ including a 10' polytip.

From the DVDs that I have watched (eg Henrick Mortensen of Scierra) the back cast seems to come around at a much higher level (presumably because there is a much shorter line to work with) but I am confused as to where the line tip should be placed for the forward cast and for that matter what constitutes the line tip?

With the traditional Switch Cast using a 14' or 15' DH rod, the line tip or needle knot should land about 3’ feet in front of the feet and 10’ to 12’ feet out to the side (Spey Cast, Simon Gawesworth, Stackpole Books 2004, p.52). But what represents the line tip for the underhand cast? Is it the fishing end of the polytip and where should it land to best facilitate loading for the forward cast?

Again from the DVDs, it seems to me that the back end or rod end of the polytip lands behind the caster and that the front end lands where the line tip should on the traditional Switch Cast. Further it seems that none or little belly (the line) lands on the water, and as the Underhand cast depends on something providing an anchor, as do all spey casts, then it seems to me to be important that the whole leader lands straight on the water (all 25' feet of it)?

I would be interested to hear comments from any members who have mastered the Underhand cast.

Regards

Don
 

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Don
I assume that the leader is positioned similarly to the tip of the line on "traditional" cast, but not certain. But, I'm taking a class with Henrik on Sunday and I'll ask him.
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Bill,

That would be interesting. I would also be interested to know whether he is using a Scierra HMS rod (after all they claim it is his design!).

Regards

Don.
 

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you should try to get along to the national country fair at emo court on the fifth or sixth of june. peter anderson will be demonstrating there and im sure if you asked him he would be glad to help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hey Duke,

Nice one. That caught me by surprise; it didnt occur to me that there was another Hibernian online. Yes I was at Emo last year and Anderson is a friendly fellow. Worth a try but somehow I can hear his derisive reply!

I am due a visit to the Moy before the end of the month to try for the last of the Springers. Any advice?

Regards

Don
 

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any advice?.... yes. watch out if you go for a pint at lunch time. it usually ends up an all day session, well it does with me :Eyecrazy:. i fish around the foxford area. guirys pub is a good place to hear where is fishing well and they have the best guinness in foxford.
iain
 

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hi duke
yes you should know all about ireland as you spend six months a year there haha.
emo i think will be an amazing show this year,the speycasting record will be beat for sure,the casting just gets better and better,you will see casts well over the 60 yard mark this yearamazinggggggg
hope to see you there
gary
 

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Hibernicus said:
Gentlemen (and some ladies I hope)

Whilst the lines may be shorter the leaders are longer and are often 25’ including a 10' polytip.

From the DVDs that I have watched (eg Henrick Mortensen of Scierra) the back cast seems to come around at a much higher level (presumably because there is a much shorter line to work with) but I am confused as to where the line tip should be placed for the forward cast and for that matter what constitutes the line tip?

With the traditional Switch Cast using a 14' or 15' DH rod, the line tip or needle knot should land about 3’ feet in front of the feet and 10’ to 12’ feet out to the side (Spey Cast, Simon Gawesworth, Stackpole Books 2004, p.52). But what represents the line tip for the underhand cast? Is it the fishing end of the polytip and where should it land to best facilitate loading for the forward cast?

Again from the DVDs, it seems to me that the back end or rod end of the polytip lands behind the caster and that the front end lands where the line tip should on the traditional Switch Cast. Further it seems that none or little belly (the line) lands on the water, and as the Underhand cast depends on something providing an anchor, as do all spey casts, then it seems to me to be important that the whole leader lands straight on the water (all 25' feet of it)?

I would be interested to hear comments from any members who have mastered the Underhand cast.

Regards

Don
Hi Don,
I'm a bailiff on a river in south-west Norway (am a Brit) and see a good number of UH casters, including a good number of Danish visitors. I have yet to see one using the full 25'. I bought myself - I use speylines usually - one of the Scierra MWF kits based on the recommendation of a Danish angler and usually use no more than a couple of metres on the polytip. (Use a #8/9 on a T&T DH1208-4. Scierra also have a useful tool on their website for gauging the length of lines should you decide to go the custom route.

The DVD as I remember it is a little misleading in its description of where you put the line on the "backcast" - instead of being "behind" it should be "upstream". In the sequence I saw the caster was standing backed up to vegetation. Remember shorter movements than when you work with a longer line although I must say that I have taught people who have a problem in using the the bottom hand (or "under" hand) as the dominant hand and there is no problem in obtaining the tightest of loops using the upper hand. Actually, I have never in any video or DVD seen any description of where you put the "D loop" on the backcast - including on the original Swedish tape - and one often sees casters making a false cast when making a change of direction of more than 40 degrees.

Simon does include a chapter on the UH cast, but I seem to remember that he is not its chief fan.

I've the impression that it isn't often used in the UK: I asked an English colleague about this not so long ago and he very seldom receives requests for tuition in the UH cast. Here, the land of the shooting head - there is an increased interest in the use of long lines - particularly after the demos by Messrs Choate and Rajeff on the recent Loomis tour. (I was sorry to have missed this!).

Regards

Steven
 

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not allowed out

duke of lanark said:
any advice?.... yes. watch out if you go for a pint at lunch time. it usually ends up an all day session, well it does with me :Eyecrazy:. i fish around the foxford area. guirys pub is a good place to hear where is fishing well and they have the best guinness in foxford.
iain
thats if your allowed out duke :tsk_tsk: but so far this year is the most i have seen you fishing in some 20 years. and the clouds have moved from over your head.
 

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the line tip

Hibernicus said:
Gentlemen (and some ladies I hope)

I am anxious to learn the underhand cast but there is little written to guide one (in English in any case).. The line lengths are very much shorter and to my mind are therefore very suited to casting from the bank on deep rivers or on very overgrown riversides. Whilst the lines may be shorter the leaders are longer and are often 25’ including a 10' polytip.

From the DVDs that I have watched (eg Henrick Mortensen of Scierra) the back cast seems to come around at a much higher level (presumably because there is a much shorter line to work with) but I am confused as to where the line tip should be placed for the forward cast and for that matter what constitutes the line tip?

With the traditional Switch Cast using a 14' or 15' DH rod, the line tip or needle knot should land about 3’ feet in front of the feet and 10’ to 12’ feet out to the side (Spey Cast, Simon Gawesworth, Stackpole Books 2004, p.52). But what represents the line tip for the underhand cast? Is it the fishing end of the polytip and where should it land to best facilitate loading for the forward cast?

Again from the DVDs, it seems to me that the back end or rod end of the polytip lands behind the caster and that the front end lands where the line tip should on the traditional Switch Cast. Further it seems that none or little belly (the line) lands on the water, and as the Underhand cast depends on something providing an anchor, as do all spey casts, then it seems to me to be important that the whole leader lands straight on the water (all 25' feet of it)?

I would be interested to hear comments from any members who have mastered the Underhand cast.

Regards

Don
in the gillies hands :chuckle: but the duke is right on a number of lessons and trips over the last few weeks have picked up on one lesson more, than i have taught myself in 30 years of fishing :confused: so the answer is get a lesson and dont pick up 30 years of bad habit
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Steven,

I take your point; wherever the line lands it is "upstream" rather than "behind". I am obliged also for your comment as to the lenght of leader used in UH casting: 25' seemed very long to me (I have never seen an UH caster in action and there is very little published so I can only have got the information from one of the catalogues!).

At the moment I use a 15'1" Euro Sage with a short head (65') Partridge Ian Gordan 9/10 line and it flies even better with a "pulling" stroke and with an emphasis on the underhand (I find the line is a just a touch heavy but nothing that can't be solved by bringing the head say 3' or 4' feet into the top ring). (Partridge promote the line as a 70' head but as the back taper is so gradual it is in effect a 65' head and that is about where the colour change occurs to the running line). However, the set-up needs a certain amount of room for the D loop such that it is not very practical on smaller rivers or from the bank.

Henrick Mortensen has a published a second volume DVD and I look forward to viewing it. In the meantime I have ordered an HMS 13'1" 8/9 plus some MWF lines & polytips and I may even take a few lessons if I can find an UH coach! (I expect Gillespie, on the Moy may be just the man).

Regards

Don
 

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Hibernicus said:
Thanks Bill,

That would be interesting. I would also be interested to know whether he is using a Scierra HMS rod (after all they claim it is his design!).

Regards

Don.
Don
Just as I suspected, no difference with grip/anchor position. And yes, I cast a couple of his HMS rods (13' 1" and 14') . . . very nice. I think the Scierra lines are very well designed . . . they just want to develop tight loops . . . even on non-scandinavian rods. But coupled with rods that are designed together with them is a marvelous match. Henrik called the 14' rod "the learning rod". For these techniques, is almost seems automatic.
Great fun.
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Bill,

Thanks for your further reply; suffice to say that I have ordered the HMS 13'1" plus lines. (I dont understand why the HMS Scierra is not more widely known).

I have tried the 15'1" and whilst it is longer than i want for the particular rivers I have in mind, the progressive action was just perfect with a soft tip but a powerful progressive blank (very different from a parabolic or through action). If the 13'1" is similar in action it will be perfect.

Can't say the same for the HMS single handed 9' #5 ... too fast and an unforgiving tip (much prefer the Scott S3).

Regards

Don
 

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The MWF system is based on using one of the included 13' polyleaders and up to about 2 metres of leader material/tippet. No where can I find information about 25 foot leaders: anyone have any advice?

Note another thread where I mentioned the customised lines: some people find the MWF heads too short.

Regards

Steven
 

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Jack Cook
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25'

I think the reference to 25' leaders is sometimes confusing.
The PWF tool typically suggests a polyleader ot 3-4 meters and about 1 meter of tippet.
On my Power Tapers and PWF lines I use either 3 or 4 meters of polyleader and 1-1.5 meter of tippet. The head lengths go from about 25 feet to 35 feet depending on rod length and the room I have to cast in.

I am far from being an expert but this is working for me. Every chance I get I question Leif and other experts to mine for whatever info I can get.

I think the PWF tool on the SCIERRA website is a very good starting point
 

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And just when I had said that I had never seen anyone using a 25' leader. I've been using the Scierra MWF 9/10 on a DH1309, but found the recommended setup too short. A couple of extra lengths knotted onto the polyleader today, and suddenly I found myself with a leader of 7.5m, which is 24.6 feet. I liked it better, but think maybe that an ideal length for me on that rod will be a couple of feet shorter.

Regards
Steven
 

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The line tip don't land. ( unless you are fishing with sunk line, and short leader )

Usually it's only the leader and fly that are set on the water, and form the anchor for the D loop (preferentially the V loop) Short heads, long leaders, high speed.

example: 9140 rod, line 40 fot 450 grain, leader 17 fot (+/-), fly double salmon 4 -6, runningline 0,031" float.
(balance between leader+ fly, and runningline is essential, adjust leader to fly. Bulky or heavy fly, shorten leader)
 
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