Spey Pages banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi, could you tell me if I can use tungsten tips with a scandi line? For example t10 - t14-17?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
I can, but don't like to, throw 10' of t8 on a Beulah Elixir 375 Spey matched to a Beulah Platinum 6126 with touch and go casts. The anchor can be sticky and ruin a cast very easily if you're not paying a huge amount of attention. I would not even bother trying if your running a dry-line, thin tipped scandi that wasn't designed for using tips. It is not comfortable, and not something I would want to do all day. In fact, I only tried it out of curiosity.

It is definitely not something I would recommend to someone just starting out. More experienced (most other people), naturally talented (some other people), or naturally stupid (me) casters can sometimes get away with shenanigans like this.

IMO If you're stuck on throwing super heavy tips, use a skagit head. But...

There are ways to cast "scandi style" with T-material, but you have to look at lines differently by matching a light and appropriate length skagit head to the appropriate weight and length tip. When combined correctly, this will make +/- a 33% sinking tipped, 67% floating driver scandi head, of overall (tip weight + driver weight) that can be cast in the scandi style without overloading your rod. But essentially you're just re-inventing the wheel...

Multi-density scandi heads are already available, and may perform better than the DIY approach.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
696 Posts
They would most likely be too heavy and very difficult and not fun to cast. Use versileaders or polyleaders with scandi lines if you want to use sink tips. Versi/polyleaders are much lighter and more tapered than the t-x sink tips. You might be able to get away with t-8 with a scandi line and maybe even t-14 with some of the crossover type scandi lines like the rio scandi body or rage, if they are 400 grains or higher and you are a decent caster. I have used t-11 with a 400 grain scandi body intermediate line and it wasn't terrible. But, those intermediate versions seem to carry more mass than the floating ones.
 

·
Broken Down Spey Freak
Joined
·
1,575 Posts
Your best bet would be to get a sinking tip scandi if it's a scandi line you want tp stick with.

Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
Since the days of DT lines forward to this very day, I've allways carried 3 small coils of T material in my wading jacket pocket for just in case I can't get deep enough with the kit I'm using,it was always with sinking lines/heads and very much a "get out of jail" card.It was a 5ft, 7ft and 10ft length of T 14.Now in the days of DT sinkers, I'd trim the front taper of the line back to try and achieve at least some semblance of a level sinking line and to help turning over heavier tube flee's.I could manage the 5ft and 7ft quite easily if I had to, the 10ft took a bit of work!.
Spey profile lines were a little harder, again I always trimmed the tips back, so that helped. However, it does reduce the shoot ability of longer bellied lines( the T material, not the cutting back!).
Nowadays I use what you all love in calling shooting heads-Scandi Lines- primarily Guideline in Single , Double and Triple D variations, these will all tolerate a 5ft and 7ft length quite easily, 10ft requires a little more effort and technique.But it's very very do-able.
As I don't want to tailor any of my Shooting Heads to be specific T material carriers by cutting the tips back, it's very much a make do n mend for when I have to do what needs to be done to save the day.Suffice to say, if you want to tailor lines, then why not?, it can only make things better.- in this instance.
Obviously common sense thinking tells you if you reduce the T stuff to T10, or T8 or less, then its all much easier!.
Also, some lines will be naturally better at achieving what you want, others will drive you to distraction.Those with long fine front tapers will be a non starter.
Heavier lines will also make it much easier, much of my sunk line fishing would be 10/11 lines and often above, the heavier lines turning over the T material easier.
The hardest part of the battle is in picking the right heads-obviously!
Good luck, Yorkie.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,103 Posts
Hi, could you tell me if I can use tungsten tips with a scandi line? For example t10 - t14-17?
T-10 maybe t-8 better still. But a heavier head will do better than a lighter one WRT sink tips and turnover. Say a 7wt line for a 6/7WT rod for example.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
It’s all about the linear density (gr/ft) of the tip you use. T8 is 8 gr/ft (hence the name) but you could also get approximately the same sink rate (s6, 6 ips) as T8 with #5,6,7 Rio Replacement tips (5.5,6.5,7.5 gr/ft respectively). Those are very similar to “t-tips” - are almost level tips but have different diameters with different amounts of tungsten per unit volume. They also come (for some weights) in s8, equivalent in sink rate to t11 but the same gr/ft as the s6, s3, int tips of the same wt rating.

On trout weight scandi lines I still tend to use these Replacement Tips (“light t-tips”) on lines that have been designed for tips, equivalent to a scandi line that has been cut back a bit to carry a tip - a commercial example is the Rio Scandi short versitip. But on a heavier scand head, or a scandi head like the Beulah elixer that has been designed with a bit heavier carrying capacity you would have no problem using these, or even s8 on the heavier ones.

A quick and dirty way to figure out if one of the replacement tips might work is if you happen to have a tapered leader/polyleader that you already know works with the head in question then the AVERAGED gr/ft of that one should work on the same head for the (mostly level) replacement tips. If the Rio tip has similar averaged weight/lenght then the butt end of the tapered leader will likely have a similar or even greater local gr/ft, so the replacement tip should work fine. There are loads of tapered polyleaders, for example, with AVERAGED linear density of 5-8 gr/ft.

The advantage of the replacement tips is that they can be much lighter and usable on delicate lines like scandis. They give you more flexibility to use greater sink rates. The downside if that they are a little more expensive, and unless you have a very good flyshop nearby you probably will want to go looking for the right one online. This method is however WAY cheaper than buying a whole new line.

As always final validation will depend on trying it out, but I hope this gives you a few ideas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,167 Posts
You can throw anything as long as the grains match. But there's a reason there are scandi lines and skagit lines. You want to throw mass, skagit. You want something smaller and maybe a bit more refined in delivery, scandi. You could also use a scandi driver body, which I think might be French for skagit.
 

·
Dedicated Fisherman
Joined
·
3,265 Posts
Hi Daniel,

I have no idea if you will return to read replies. I considered a PM but some people sign up and select not to receive PM's so I'll post here and copy a PM to boot.

If you were to enter the search words 'Streamer Fishing Techniques by Ard Stetts' into your browser you'll see how I manage to fish 45 foot Scandi lines and Mid Spey lines and get my flies down.

I suggest using a computer or at least iPad for viewing as I can't imagine I made the video to be viewed on a phone :Eyecrazy:

About 3 minutes into it you will see how I rig a sink tip to a Scandi. I live in Alaska and I catch everything this way from Kings to Steelhead and it'll work down to 6 - 7 feet of depth. You can make your own system or contact me if you want to give it a whirl.

The video explains how I get the required depth wherever I fish.

Ard
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
You can throw anything as long as the grains match. But there's a reason there are scandi lines and skagit lines. You want to throw mass, skagit. You want something smaller and maybe a bit more refined in delivery, scandi. You could also use a scandi driver body, which I think might be French for skagit.
Yes, I was going to say that if you ever find a scandi that casts t14 like the OP was asking, it will be a Scandino (scandi in name only). :) If you NEED to get that deep then you have to make sacrifices (use a skagit) or be clever like a fox (Ard).

Even the compensated tips have limits. They don’t make these light tips in sink rates faster than 8ips (equivalent to the heavier t11) - I assume because they would have to be too thin and/or have so much % of Tungsten in the coating the plastic would no longer hold it together. Actual t11 is a no, and over that is a hard no. The platonic form of a scandi has a long taper and a slender tip that turns over a long lightweight tapered LEADER with elegance, so whenever you start playing with real tips you are tempting retribution from the gods. :saevilw:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
Heavy Scandi ....
Since you already apparently, based on your prior posts, have a lot of the data in a spreadsheet or equivalent, and I’m assuming you are just plotting diameters there as a regular cross section, as a math nerd there are a couple of things I’d love to see.

1. While what you are plotting there is evocative of the truth it is not always the most accurate way to look at it in terms of the casting physics, especially when you mix two materials with different volumetric densities as you just did. You might try plotting the diameters in proportion to the weight/length of the materials, so for a line you would just adjust the relative diameters shown in proportion to the square of the diameter. Of course you would have to adjust the different tip densities, etc. Doing a more continuous multi-density LINE this way would of course require more work. But that way you could see more of the physical properties of the line, especially the relative tip connection offset.

2. I’ve often though it would be nice to include with all lines in addition to weight and length a gr/ft measurement at the tip, as this would immediately answer %90 of the questions (like the one that started this thread) about what tips should be usable with a given line. Even a relative degree of difficulty. Yeah, I know I could figure out the densities of the different materials and go around measuring tips with my micrometer, but I’m a very lazy math nerd. If only somewhere there was a database of all the raw information...:chuckle:

Actually I’d even pay a nominal fee for a table of current lines that had this tip rating info!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
It´s a mass distribution (Masseverteilung)!

In reality T10 is much thinner than the RAGE tip - on the picture it´s thicker.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
The plotted width of the (equi-lenght) sections is the weight of each section? Perfect! On SP the text of the images is almost blurred out. I think that is the site’s doing.

That last one really answers the extreme question the OP had nicely. And that line is arguably barely in the scandi category! I guess we could be charitable and call it the beefiest end of the scandi spectrum before becoming an actual “scandino”.



I’m really not joking - it would be nice to see a numerical table of gr/ft at the end for different lines! :chuckle:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
It would help if we knew why you wanted to fish a scandi with a tip. Are you just trying to get more use out of a line you already have? Or are you trying to throw tips on longer lines? If its the latter then consider a longer line built for tips like the Winter Authority 45 or even 55. These have the taper to turn over heavier tips but are more int he 30' range. If you are just trying to get more use form the line then go with the faster sinking poly leaders and a sparser fly. A suer fast sinking poly leader with a winters hope style fly will get every bit as deep as some T14 and a bulky fly.
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top