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chrome-magnon man
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Herb Spannagl from New Zealand sent me this clip of a cast he's developed for fishing his home river, the Tongariro. Since I'm going to be doing a whole lot of single handed speycasting this summer on the Tour De Trout, I've been corresponding with him about his methods, and he's kindly given permission for me to post this clip for everyone to study.

The Tongariro Roll Cast (or TRC as it is known) combines elements of the double spey, "poke" casting, and the liveline roll cast to produce a powerful and interesting cast that he uses to reposition nymph patterns.

There has been some discussion on sexyloops about whether or not this cast is a double spey with a poke, but it is different to my eye. I believe it was developed without knowledge of the poke casts (and they were developed without knowledge of the TRC) but hopefully Herb will join us with some detailed background.

Thanks Herb!

TRC
 

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Gasp!

Is that an indicator on the end of his line?

Looks like some of my recovery casts when the setup didn't go right.
 

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Grampa Spey said:
Gasp!

Is that an indicator on the end of his line?

Looks like some of my recovery casts when the setup didn't go right.
Dear God! Can I ever relate!! :saeek: Actually teach 'newbie' folks how to do this as we all blow casts, then what?? :smokin:
 

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I'm a little puzzled by this - it seems more complicated than it needs to be.

The first stage is similar to a double spey, but he pulls back from the forward delivery. He then moves the rod forward and back before coming back to make the final delivery stroke.

What does the splashy forward-and-back movement in the middle of the cast achieve? Wouldn't a modified double spey, without shooting line, followed immediately by a straightforward switch cast into which the running line is shot, achieve the same result more economically?
 

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chrome-magnon man
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Discussion Starter #8
I don't want to stick my foot too far in it 'cause I only know the cast through video and discussion with Herb (I haven't tried it on the water yet) but I believe the poke is so that line can be lengthened to allow for maximum loading for distance and power in the delivery cast, which would be tough to do with only a short line out the rod tip after the flies are retrieved.

At the end of the cast the line is retrieved, a double spey is made to reposition the line. During the aborted forward cast of the double spey (poke #1) the line is shot forward to extend and also the caster follows through with the rod tip to allow for a long backstroke, then more line is slipped into the 2nd backstroke, then the line is poked again (poke #2) to set up the final cast.
 

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Mr. Mom
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I like it! It pretty much looks like a double spey to get things straight, followed by a "skagit" switch cast to get extra distance. Surely I'm not the only one who has followed up a spey cast with a switch cast to get extreme distance :saevilw:
 

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Contrived Cast?

Looks like a partial contrived cast that goes into to a recovery poke. Seems like one extra casting move thrown into the mix to get the fly out. I'm sure there is a place and time for such a cast. Klem
 

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Trc

Thank you all for your interest in this cast.

Dana has given you a good rundown on the various movements.

Let me add a few things that hopefully will explain the cast a little better.

1. It is an upstream nymph cast primarily developed for delivering a NZ double rig consisting of a heavy bomb (sinker fly) and an unweighted #14-16 nymph or micro globug. This rig is tethered to a 13-15' level mono leader. Usually a largish yarn indicator is attached to the end of the fly line. The target fish are the steelhead running the Tongariro River from Lake Taupo.

2. After the drift into the dangle the line needs repositioning in line with the target. This is done with the first part of a double Spey movement to provide slack but is then rolled in a continuous, same speed motion to alight line and leader on the water in a straight line and in line with the target. In the river right set-up the roll is continued with a rod pull during which retrieved line is allowed to slip onto the water. The forward sweep releases more retrieved line into the fold. I prefer sweep as I use water tension to let it drag line from my hand, hence the horizontal rod sweep.

Slipping line is the only reason for folding the line with the forward sweep. The repositioning has already been done.

3. As you can see from the clip if you advance frame by frame after pressing pause there is a lot of line on the water. which then gets shot into a deep V-loop. It is this loop and the maximum anchor stick that allows the rod to be loaded. The rod is a 9' #6 Composite Development XLS casting an Airflo #7 long belly "Distance" line.

4. The forward cast is a standard switch with a long haul.

The success of this cast lies in the deep V-loop that could not be produced other than with a jumped line. Considering the gear that is used jumping/snapping the line is not possible or let me say a very unreliable way to set this cast up to be dead in line with the target.

I have heard the comment that some moves are unnecessary before. I should ask you to try casting 60-70' using similar gear with any other Spey cast to produce a change of direction of say, 120 degrees.

A further comment re unnecessary movements. This is a pure upstream "fishing cast" that delivers the business end effortlessly and very accurately over long distances. It is much quicker than an overhead casting cycle and completely avoids the very common collision of lead with bare flesh or rod.

I am currently experimenting with different line profiles and rod actions. Apart from long bellies I have not come to any solid conclusions other than that a medium action rod loads better than one with a fast action . Do any contributors have any upstream Spey casting experience with lines and SH rods they could share?

Kind regards

Herb from "Downunder"
 

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Sratch - Contrive Cast Please!

Thanks for your further explantion. Even with a video I missed the point of the cast. Your explanation helped clear up the reason for the extra move. Klem
 

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chrome-magnon man
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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks Herb!

Do you use the TRC exclusively for upstream heavy nymphing or has it become one of your default casts for other presentations as well?

For upstream attractor dries and searching patterns I'll often use the snake roll with a SH. You can make a big directional change with this cast too.
 

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Trc

Hi Dana
I use this cast a lot with light rods during what we call "summer fishing".
That is upstream fishing to feeding fish with small nymphs and/or dry fly.
As a default cast I use it mainly when blind fishing the water.

When sight fishing for spooky fish in very clear water I prefer the more accurate overhead cast and only use the TRC in confined spaces. This said, this cast can be quite delicate and accurate and has enabled me to dig out some very large browns from situations I could not possibly have managed an overhead cast.

I have a number of #5 and #6 rods but have really taken a liking to a CD 7'6" #5, 4piece Downunder rod. Apart from its ease of handling in overgrown streams it lays out a long line (#6 DT) on even larger rivers both overhead casting and with the TRC. The DT allows mending at long distances, which mitigates any disadvantage of the shorter rod. On the whole I prefer rods under 9' for all my upstream work.

During my recent Tongariro trip I also used an 8'6" medium action #6 4piece Kilwell Innovation rod and a 7# WFLB line to cast the TRC, I was using a bomb with a 5.5mm tungsten bead and a good measure of heavy lead wire. What a pleasure to feel the rod load deeply and smoothly and then see the cast fly out towards a distant seam.

All this might sound like heresy to all you confirmed DHanders but there is beauty in watching a good cast take off with whatever gear one uses.

I always marvel when I watch vids of how great Spey casters can coax such beautiful casts with their huge rods and heavy lines. Size is relative isn't it? What unites us all is our love of fly-casting to noble fish.

Cheers

Herb
 

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RNZ sounds like you face low water conditions very similar to that on the upper Rogue River here in Southern Oregon. A long up-stream dead drift will hook far more fish than a 'swung fly.'

About the only 'add on' I do is add 'up-stream stack mending' for line/hooking control.

And Rich, Carl Perry' "Poke" has recoved far more casts than the one(s) I got right! :saeek:

PS to Rich: Checks in the mail!
Fred
 

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Fred, try a Skagit line with a floating tip w/this cast.

fredaevans said:
RNZ sounds like you face low water conditions very similar to that on the upper Rogue River here in Southern Oregon. A long up-stream dead drift will hook far more fish than a 'swung fly.'

About the only 'add on' I do is add 'up-stream stack mending' for line/hooking control.

And Rich, Carl Perry' "Poke" has recoved far more casts than the one(s) I got right! :saeek:

PS to Rich: Checks in the mail!
Fred
Fred, if you can get your hand on a Skagit line try the world famous, Fred Evans patented or is it copy righted Fred Evans/Perry Recovery Poke upstream cast with a floating tip and a :saeek: "gasp" indicator.

The past few weeks, as my torn right bicep, rehabs, I have been able to cast my 5120 and my 6126 last weekend. The Fred Evans/Perry Recovery Poke cast has saved many flawed casts. :lildevl:
 

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Skagit Line

Hi Dave

Could you give me the vital statistics of the Fred Evans Skagit line, including any line weight suitable for a #8, 9' single handed rod.

I have tried an Airflo Tactical Spey line with a 51' head in #6-7 weight. Great line but unfortunately it is the lightest line they offer. Would prefer a #5-6 or even a #4-5 Spey line for my upstream nymphing with the TRC cast.

Look forward to your advice.

Herb
 

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Fred doesn't make a Skagit line but the Rio Outbounds might work for you

rainbownz said:
Hi Dave

Could you give me the vital statistics of the Fred Evans Skagit line, including any line weight suitable for a #8, 9' single handed rod.

I have tried an Airflo Tactical Spey line with a 51' head in #6-7 weight. Great line but unfortunately it is the lightest line they offer. Would prefer a #5-6 or even a #4-5 Spey line for my upstream nymphing with the TRC cast.

Look forward to your advice.

Herb
Herb, Fred doesn't make a a Skagit. However, Black Francis has an interesting post where he apparently is using the Rio Outbound Floating lines as mini Skagit line. That is in the tackle section of threads.

Contact Black Francis and discuss your needs with him. Then, contact Simon Gawesworth about which Outbound Floating line to use with your #8, 9' single rod to try this. He will probably recommend the WF8F.
 

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Rio Outward Bound lines

Thanks Dave

Read up on it and feel that this line profile is not ideal for the TRC. I have cast a lot of different long belly WF lines for single handers and they all work.

However, this cast works even better with a head of around 50' and more belly mass than is provided by the SH lines. I now look forward to a new prototype TRC line currently developed by Composite Development NZ in conjunction with Airflo. It will be lighter (#5-6)than their Tactical Spey #6-7 and will feature a longer rear taper to improve distance mending up to 60'.

I have sent Dana another clip of the TRC from a river left position. I hope that he will put it on the site.

Thanks for your advice

Cheers

Herb
 
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