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Thompson to remain open
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People, please don't take by this announcement that eveything is o.k. on the Thompson, the river is staying open because the provincial fisheries branch now estimates 1100 fish, this isn't an estimate of whats in the river now, this is an estimate on the size of the run that will reach the spawning beds in the spring. 1100 fish is still extremely low.
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3,042 Posts
Russ,
The 1100 fish comes from 4 fish - not the 3 cited. Never-the-less, the number is based on an extrapolation. This doesn't really change the reality, 1100 fish is a terribly low number of fish. I don't disbelieve the Province's numbers - it is just that there aren't enough fish.
I will not be fishing the Thompson for the rest of the season. As tough as it will be I will also go up a couple of more times to steward the river and give my support to the businesses of Spence's Bridge.
The 1100 fish comes from 4 fish - not the 3 cited. Never-the-less, the number is based on an extrapolation. This doesn't really change the reality, 1100 fish is a terribly low number of fish. I don't disbelieve the Province's numbers - it is just that there aren't enough fish.
I will not be fishing the Thompson for the rest of the season. As tough as it will be I will also go up a couple of more times to steward the river and give my support to the businesses of Spence's Bridge.
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2,829 Posts
Historical Run Size?
Does anyone know what the estimate for the historical run size on the Thompson?
Does anyone know what the estimate for the historical run size on the Thompson?
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3,042 Posts
It seems the best estimate (in recent history) was approximately 20,000 fish rounding the north end of Vancouver Island and between there and the spawning grounds 16,000 were intercepted! The 4000 that made it to the river provided incredible fishing. I can only shudder as I try to imagine what 16,000 more would provide...
You would have to ask RLN what year that was.
You would have to ask RLN what year that was.
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2,829 Posts
20K to the Beds
Realistically we should then try to arrange maters so that the historical number of spanners make it up to the beds. I don't think the polls have any real appreciation of the difference in value of a sport caught vs. netted fish, steelhead or salmon. The sport fisherman spends hundreds of dollars er pound, the real value of the fish vs less that $1.00 per pound for a netted fish. I am not sure how we make them understand the facts, much less act on them in a logical fashion.
In any case it is too precious a resource to go to the nets.
Realistically we should then try to arrange maters so that the historical number of spanners make it up to the beds. I don't think the polls have any real appreciation of the difference in value of a sport caught vs. netted fish, steelhead or salmon. The sport fisherman spends hundreds of dollars er pound, the real value of the fish vs less that $1.00 per pound for a netted fish. I am not sure how we make them understand the facts, much less act on them in a logical fashion.
In any case it is too precious a resource to go to the nets.
Tyler, that was 1984 and we are still talking about it, that was 19 seasons ago. T_richerhazgen, we must be careful about putting a price tag on this resource because the best value on the Thompson in terms of dollars would be by damming it and selling the hydro power. I am sure thats what our government would prefer to do with This river. I don't believe the run size was ever huge, there arn't any mainstream spawners and the 3 tributaries that all the fish spawn in are very small creeks.
Nice numbers Tyler
I like your numbers of fish rounding the outside of van island Tyler. I just wonder who and how they count the fish as they pass the top of the island? The only numbers they have to go by are the test at Albion. I have been in the fishing industry in some form or another all my life. I have worked with the goverment on many test fisherys and programs over those years. Not to be a prick but it is guys like yourself that are a danger to all the rivers and fishermen alike. The guys on this site all seem to think you and Dana are experts on all fishing subjects. You like to spout things out like they are facts and most are way off base. The posting you you wrote that claimed the Albion test fishery kills the Thompson fish they catch is false. They like all fish boats on the coast must have live tanks on the deck to save the steelhead. They also patrol the net back and forth and free any steelhead caught in the net before they pick it. The guy doing the test has done it for 23 years now and cares a great deal about the fish. I will bet Dana will get rid of this little note as soon as he reads it so Tyler's image is left alone. Lets all remember who we get our great info from guys Dana and Tyler are school teachers and part time fishermen. If you want real facts talk to the guys in the industry not school teachers go to the docks and get it from the source. Sorry Dana and Tyler but look at yourselfs and point your fingers.:tsk_tsk:
I like your numbers of fish rounding the outside of van island Tyler. I just wonder who and how they count the fish as they pass the top of the island? The only numbers they have to go by are the test at Albion. I have been in the fishing industry in some form or another all my life. I have worked with the goverment on many test fisherys and programs over those years. Not to be a prick but it is guys like yourself that are a danger to all the rivers and fishermen alike. The guys on this site all seem to think you and Dana are experts on all fishing subjects. You like to spout things out like they are facts and most are way off base. The posting you you wrote that claimed the Albion test fishery kills the Thompson fish they catch is false. They like all fish boats on the coast must have live tanks on the deck to save the steelhead. They also patrol the net back and forth and free any steelhead caught in the net before they pick it. The guy doing the test has done it for 23 years now and cares a great deal about the fish. I will bet Dana will get rid of this little note as soon as he reads it so Tyler's image is left alone. Lets all remember who we get our great info from guys Dana and Tyler are school teachers and part time fishermen. If you want real facts talk to the guys in the industry not school teachers go to the docks and get it from the source. Sorry Dana and Tyler but look at yourselfs and point your fingers.:tsk_tsk:
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5,373 Posts
actually FLY I won't delete your post
Sorry to disappoint you on that. If you knew a little more about me rather than jumping to conclusions, you'd know that deleting a post is pretty much a last resort for me. Your expectation is based on the simple fact that you really don't know much about me, and I can certainly make allowances for that. Why don't you contact me directly and we can discuss your obvious areas of expertise as they relate to the Thompson? I'd like to learn more about the commercial boats and what goes on. I actually have a pretty balanced view on the commercial fishery as it relates to the Thompson. I won't speak for Tyler, but I think you'd find him to be pretty balanced as well.
Much of what you say is quite possibly correct, it is simply the tone of your post that might be taken as offensive; however, as the Thompson is an emotional subject for many (myself included) I am quite content to let your post stand and filter out the emotion as I read it, as I encourage others to do.
You obviously care both about Thompson steelhead and the image that commercial fishers have on boards such as this, and you feel that Tyler, myself and others are doing a lot of harm to the reputation of the commercial fishers and the Albion test fishers. That concern makes sense to me because many people generally don't like school teachers either and I hear it and deal with it all the time.
But rather than attack, why not consider working with us so that we can become better educated about the issues that impact the Thompson? I think you'd find that, rather than considering ourselves as experts, you'd find that we are pretty much regular guys who like to fish and from time-to-time express our opinions on subjects we care about, just like you.
Email me directly with a phone number and I'll give you a call and we'll get together for a beer. A person with your obvious passion about the Thompson is someone I'd like to share a pint with.
Sorry to disappoint you on that. If you knew a little more about me rather than jumping to conclusions, you'd know that deleting a post is pretty much a last resort for me. Your expectation is based on the simple fact that you really don't know much about me, and I can certainly make allowances for that. Why don't you contact me directly and we can discuss your obvious areas of expertise as they relate to the Thompson? I'd like to learn more about the commercial boats and what goes on. I actually have a pretty balanced view on the commercial fishery as it relates to the Thompson. I won't speak for Tyler, but I think you'd find him to be pretty balanced as well.
Much of what you say is quite possibly correct, it is simply the tone of your post that might be taken as offensive; however, as the Thompson is an emotional subject for many (myself included) I am quite content to let your post stand and filter out the emotion as I read it, as I encourage others to do.
You obviously care both about Thompson steelhead and the image that commercial fishers have on boards such as this, and you feel that Tyler, myself and others are doing a lot of harm to the reputation of the commercial fishers and the Albion test fishers. That concern makes sense to me because many people generally don't like school teachers either and I hear it and deal with it all the time.
But rather than attack, why not consider working with us so that we can become better educated about the issues that impact the Thompson? I think you'd find that, rather than considering ourselves as experts, you'd find that we are pretty much regular guys who like to fish and from time-to-time express our opinions on subjects we care about, just like you.
Email me directly with a phone number and I'll give you a call and we'll get together for a beer. A person with your obvious passion about the Thompson is someone I'd like to share a pint with.
FLYH20,
I fail to see how those of us who want to see more of the returning fish reach thier natal rivers are a danger either to the rivers or sportsfishers. And I also suppose that there is no mortality of the steelhead caught in the nets either.
I'm sorry, but I've have seen many Skagit chinook (an endangered run) get caught in the nets when the Native fishermen were targeting pinks or silvers that either were dead or nearly so despite the Native fishers best efforts to prevent them dying, including theri patrolling the net back and forth. And this is in a river with much smaller lengths of net than in the salt.
I fail to see how those of us who want to see more of the returning fish reach thier natal rivers are a danger either to the rivers or sportsfishers. And I also suppose that there is no mortality of the steelhead caught in the nets either.
I'm sorry, but I've have seen many Skagit chinook (an endangered run) get caught in the nets when the Native fishermen were targeting pinks or silvers that either were dead or nearly so despite the Native fishers best efforts to prevent them dying, including theri patrolling the net back and forth. And this is in a river with much smaller lengths of net than in the salt.
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65 Posts
well said Dana
Dana,
I just wanted to say how much i admire you and the job you do here on the board. The professional manner in which you responded to this post impresses me greatly. FlyH20, i'm in no way bashing your post, you seem to know quite a bit about the fishery, more than i, and i'm sure you have some very good info we can all learn from. I don't know Dana personally, or kush for that matter, all i have to go on is what i read here on the board, and from that they seem to both be people who are very passionate about fly fishing, and the thompson river steelhead have a special place in their hearts. I don't think any of their posts were meant to harm anything, i believe they are just trying to educate people so they can make the best possible decisions. Anyway, my 2 cents.
CDG
Dana,
I just wanted to say how much i admire you and the job you do here on the board. The professional manner in which you responded to this post impresses me greatly. FlyH20, i'm in no way bashing your post, you seem to know quite a bit about the fishery, more than i, and i'm sure you have some very good info we can all learn from. I don't know Dana personally, or kush for that matter, all i have to go on is what i read here on the board, and from that they seem to both be people who are very passionate about fly fishing, and the thompson river steelhead have a special place in their hearts. I don't think any of their posts were meant to harm anything, i believe they are just trying to educate people so they can make the best possible decisions. Anyway, my 2 cents.
CDG
Dear Experts
From time to time i have visited this site over the past year. The things that disturb me most, i think of the same things that are getting under fly h2o's skin. For example the shooting off at the mouth with facts and figures from the likes of kush and dana, with no research just rumour to back it up. I was really waiting to see the answer from kush on the question about the numbers of steelhead, so called"rounding the outside" of vancouver island.
I understand that this is dana's website, so i guess that gives him and his buddy kush the right to be experts on this forum. But I have to agree with fly h2o, incorrect information can be, and is very harmful!!
No disrespect Dana, but talking to buddy's of mine, you'd never picked up a fishing rod let alone a spey rod until only a couple of years ago. I understand you have worked very hard at your casting and taken some courses and become quite decent at casting. But fishing two runs of the Thompson River and not having a deep hearted fishing background ,it is quite hard to take you serious on any subject but forming a "D" loop.
I'm Sorry for going off on a Rant but it looks like one of those nights. I myself have been fishin since my father could get a life jacket on me. But this is my first posting on this site.
I personaly asked the gentlmen that runs that test fishery at albion if i could observe what goes on during the test set. I was very impressed of the scientific manner in which the test was conducted and the care and consveration given to each and every fish not just steelhead caught. I suggest more of you on this post go out in the field and do more research and fact finding, rather than just practising pretty cast's.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for letting me vent
From time to time i have visited this site over the past year. The things that disturb me most, i think of the same things that are getting under fly h2o's skin. For example the shooting off at the mouth with facts and figures from the likes of kush and dana, with no research just rumour to back it up. I was really waiting to see the answer from kush on the question about the numbers of steelhead, so called"rounding the outside" of vancouver island.
I understand that this is dana's website, so i guess that gives him and his buddy kush the right to be experts on this forum. But I have to agree with fly h2o, incorrect information can be, and is very harmful!!
No disrespect Dana, but talking to buddy's of mine, you'd never picked up a fishing rod let alone a spey rod until only a couple of years ago. I understand you have worked very hard at your casting and taken some courses and become quite decent at casting. But fishing two runs of the Thompson River and not having a deep hearted fishing background ,it is quite hard to take you serious on any subject but forming a "D" loop.
I'm Sorry for going off on a Rant but it looks like one of those nights. I myself have been fishin since my father could get a life jacket on me. But this is my first posting on this site.
I personaly asked the gentlmen that runs that test fishery at albion if i could observe what goes on during the test set. I was very impressed of the scientific manner in which the test was conducted and the care and consveration given to each and every fish not just steelhead caught. I suggest more of you on this post go out in the field and do more research and fact finding, rather than just practising pretty cast's.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for letting me vent
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5,373 Posts
yet again
You're welcome!
I'm uncertain who your buddies are, but obviously they do not know me or my history very well. It is not uncommon for someone like me to have misinformation spread around about them, and there's very little that can be done about it except remaining true to who I am and the principles that guide me.
A little history:
like you I have been fishing since my dad could get a life jacket on me. Loon Lake near Cache Creek mostly, and mostly trolling worms and flatfish around. We'd do this a couple times a year as I was growing up, and also a little salmon fishing in the chuck and along the Fraser, but not a whole lot.
I started fly fishing in 1988 when I was living in Golden and started to fish the Bow--Jim McLennan was my first casting instructor and remains a strong influence and a friend. When I moved back to Vancouver in the ealy 90s I stared to fish the interior lakes pretty hard as well as some of the local trout streams. I discovered steelhead fly fishing and the two-handed fly rod in 1994 and haven't looked back. I count myself lucky to have had instruction from some of the best, including Derek Brown, Goran Andersson and Nobuo Nodera, and I've read and studied and practiced a lot, too.
As far as the Thompson goes, this is my 10th season, and I regularly haunt 20 or so runs on the river, although I am perhaps best known for fishing one well-known piece of water. I spend 2 - 3 weeks on the river over the course of an average season, and I catch a few fish, but not this year.
I'm not sure if a lifetime of fun fishing, 15 dedicated years with a fly rod in my hand, 10 seasons on the Thompson, and nearly 10 years casting spey rods qualifies as "a deep hearted fishing background" or to be taken seriously by anyone, but that really isn't a big concern for me. I am who I am, I say what I think and feel, and when I'm wrong I own it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Beyond that I'm just a regular guy who likes to fish, and who created a website that people seem to enjoy. That gives me a lot of satisfaction.
A web site where my friends and I can spout off? Well, I really don't think of this as my website too much anymore. The speyclave and speypages are your websites:you the participants have made them your own through everything you do here. I'm just the guy who flips the switches, pays a few bills and chimes in every now and then if I think I might have a little to offer.
smrrun, I extend to you the same offer as to FLY: email me with a number, I'll call you and we'll sit down over a pint and discuss this like gentlemen. Like FLYH20, the real problem here is that you are forming conclusions about someone you don't know very well. By now I think it is clear that your friends are in error. I don't believe they are malicious, merely uninformed. Perhaps you could share the above with them so that they might better represent me in the future.
As far as Tyler's numbers, I'll leave it to him to respond to your questions. He hasn't responded yet because he is away right now, on the Thompson actually, not fishing but hanging out and supporting the town with his presence and his dollars. Because of his concern for the fish, he has decided to stay out of the water for the rest of the season, but he will travel to the river the same number of times he normally would and be there to enjoy the river and the people of Spences Bridge. Beyond his angling abilities and his prowess with a spey rod, what makes Tyler one of the greats is that at the end of the day the fish and the river will always come first. I am proud to call him the very best of friends.
You're welcome!
I'm uncertain who your buddies are, but obviously they do not know me or my history very well. It is not uncommon for someone like me to have misinformation spread around about them, and there's very little that can be done about it except remaining true to who I am and the principles that guide me.
A little history:
like you I have been fishing since my dad could get a life jacket on me. Loon Lake near Cache Creek mostly, and mostly trolling worms and flatfish around. We'd do this a couple times a year as I was growing up, and also a little salmon fishing in the chuck and along the Fraser, but not a whole lot.
I started fly fishing in 1988 when I was living in Golden and started to fish the Bow--Jim McLennan was my first casting instructor and remains a strong influence and a friend. When I moved back to Vancouver in the ealy 90s I stared to fish the interior lakes pretty hard as well as some of the local trout streams. I discovered steelhead fly fishing and the two-handed fly rod in 1994 and haven't looked back. I count myself lucky to have had instruction from some of the best, including Derek Brown, Goran Andersson and Nobuo Nodera, and I've read and studied and practiced a lot, too.
As far as the Thompson goes, this is my 10th season, and I regularly haunt 20 or so runs on the river, although I am perhaps best known for fishing one well-known piece of water. I spend 2 - 3 weeks on the river over the course of an average season, and I catch a few fish, but not this year.
I'm not sure if a lifetime of fun fishing, 15 dedicated years with a fly rod in my hand, 10 seasons on the Thompson, and nearly 10 years casting spey rods qualifies as "a deep hearted fishing background" or to be taken seriously by anyone, but that really isn't a big concern for me. I am who I am, I say what I think and feel, and when I'm wrong I own it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Beyond that I'm just a regular guy who likes to fish, and who created a website that people seem to enjoy. That gives me a lot of satisfaction.
A web site where my friends and I can spout off? Well, I really don't think of this as my website too much anymore. The speyclave and speypages are your websites:you the participants have made them your own through everything you do here. I'm just the guy who flips the switches, pays a few bills and chimes in every now and then if I think I might have a little to offer.
smrrun, I extend to you the same offer as to FLY: email me with a number, I'll call you and we'll sit down over a pint and discuss this like gentlemen. Like FLYH20, the real problem here is that you are forming conclusions about someone you don't know very well. By now I think it is clear that your friends are in error. I don't believe they are malicious, merely uninformed. Perhaps you could share the above with them so that they might better represent me in the future.
As far as Tyler's numbers, I'll leave it to him to respond to your questions. He hasn't responded yet because he is away right now, on the Thompson actually, not fishing but hanging out and supporting the town with his presence and his dollars. Because of his concern for the fish, he has decided to stay out of the water for the rest of the season, but he will travel to the river the same number of times he normally would and be there to enjoy the river and the people of Spences Bridge. Beyond his angling abilities and his prowess with a spey rod, what makes Tyler one of the greats is that at the end of the day the fish and the river will always come first. I am proud to call him the very best of friends.
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7,105 Posts
Howdy smrrun & FlyH20,
I do not know Kush or Dana and I sure don't know the scientific facts surrounding the Thompson fishery, but I do know one thing for sure. Neither of you have added anything enlightening to this subject. I find your personal attacks to be boorish and your tone offensive. There seems to be an undertone of defensiveness in your posts that make me suspicious of anything you write. If you don't like what Dana and Kush are saying you always have the option of not coming here. Perhaps if you do that you will feel better. I know I will.
I do not know Kush or Dana and I sure don't know the scientific facts surrounding the Thompson fishery, but I do know one thing for sure. Neither of you have added anything enlightening to this subject. I find your personal attacks to be boorish and your tone offensive. There seems to be an undertone of defensiveness in your posts that make me suspicious of anything you write. If you don't like what Dana and Kush are saying you always have the option of not coming here. Perhaps if you do that you will feel better. I know I will.
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1,771 Posts
I think what has earned Dana and Tyler their stripes over the years is their dedication, involvement, and mastery of their sport for which they have boundless passion. In fact, one could argue that their efforts including this site have provided solidarity, community, strength and awareness of the plight of the Thompson steelhead.
In fact it's Dana's hard work that provided a soapbox for your provincial point of view, which many could see as a first (and only) post to rationalize a risky netting operation which has just proven itself to be inaccurate over the last few weeks.
I agree we need a canary in the coal mine, but if we can put men on the moon it's at least possible that we could do a bit better job of monitoring a run than the current approach, meaning no disrespect to those who are involved in the current approach of course. It's appears that in fact you are defending the approach because you are involved in it somehow, or your friends are, or are somehow clearly offended by people who don't unilaterally approve.
I hope you guys post more than the single attempt to defame Dana and Tyler. If there is a reasonable and viable argument to those things you feel strongly about, those views are valuable in the forum. Make a case, or else be known as the 1 post wonders - up to you.
In any case, let's take the high road which is our way here on the Speypages and Flyfishing Forum (with a few speed bumps of course)
In fact it's Dana's hard work that provided a soapbox for your provincial point of view, which many could see as a first (and only) post to rationalize a risky netting operation which has just proven itself to be inaccurate over the last few weeks.
I agree we need a canary in the coal mine, but if we can put men on the moon it's at least possible that we could do a bit better job of monitoring a run than the current approach, meaning no disrespect to those who are involved in the current approach of course. It's appears that in fact you are defending the approach because you are involved in it somehow, or your friends are, or are somehow clearly offended by people who don't unilaterally approve.
I hope you guys post more than the single attempt to defame Dana and Tyler. If there is a reasonable and viable argument to those things you feel strongly about, those views are valuable in the forum. Make a case, or else be known as the 1 post wonders - up to you.
In any case, let's take the high road which is our way here on the Speypages and Flyfishing Forum (with a few speed bumps of course)
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5,566 Posts
I will not try and defend either Dana or Tyler as they are both quite capable of doing that for themselves. I am proud to call both friends though and find any attack on either their conservation ethic or their fishing ability laughable. I also have to chuckle to think that anyone (Smrrun and FlyH20 are you really the same person?) would think that coming onto this site and posting your first post in such an inflamatory manner would do anything but make the readers think you a sneaky troublemaker. I have to wonder if maybe this is not your first post after all.
But what do I know, I am just another school district employee.
But what do I know, I am just another school district employee.
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