Spey Pages banner

1 - 20 of 43 Posts

·
Pupil of the river.
Joined
·
403 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm not in any way dogging on sage here, this is just something I've noticed. I spoke with a friend recently about this subject and they had seen similar results from rod to rod of the same model. Maybe all manufacturers are like this. It's just that my Deathstar has been to the hospital a few times.

Anyway, here's the story. I bought a TCX 7126 back in 2010 when they were fairly new and the hot new rod on the market. I have always loved the rod and it probably has more hours on it than any other.

I've snapped it three times, all due to my own ass-i-nine-ness. Once on the rood of my SUV, once when and intruder took of the tip and once when it got wrapped in a tree while I was floating down a small costal river. It's been loved, used and abused.

After snapping it the first time, I sent it in and received it back a few weeks later. I fished it that week and I was super excited to have my baby back. I cast it for 5 minutes and looked down at the rod to make sure I was really holding my trusty deathstar. What had been a very lively, snappy, sweet stick, was now stiff and clunky. It seriously didn't seem like the same rod. Same reel (balance), same line, same everything. Very strange.

The second time it came back, it cast differently again. It was a little crisper, a bit less clunky, but not nearly the same as it had been originally. Again, not the same rod.

If I break it again, I'm expecting to get back a limp noodle.

Has anybody else had a similar experience? Could it be that they're using updated graphite to build the new sections? I'm sure the mandrel hasn't changed. Is blank rolling such an insane process, that it's hard to keep them consistent?

thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
498 Posts
Several years ago I had a similar thing happen with my Loomis 13' 8 wt.

Check and see how far the male sections slides into the female section. The replacement section that Loomis gave me slid considerably farther into the female section killing the action of the rod. Loomis gave me another rod.

Skilly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,098 Posts
Yes and strangely enough with a Sage and a G Loomis Greased Liner. The Sage came back with a much softer, weaker tip and it was only a matter of time before it broke again for no apparent reason.

It was two completely different rods in the case of the Greased Liner. I had a 15 7/8 GLX as a loaner from Kaufmann's (when they still had a shop in Seattle) close to four months. That was the time it took for CND to replace a loose ferrule, and I fished the loaner for an entire summer. Some time after receiving mine and returning theirs I purchased my own Greased Liner. The same model would not cast the same lines 7/8 weight lines as the previous rod. It was actually closer to an 8/9 and a real bummer then.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
We have five Sage "Death Star" rods in our group. They were purchased at different times, very eary (mine) and one at the very end of the production run.

All cast virtually identical. One had problems with a ferrule fit up and was returned with two new sections,,,, no change in action or casting "feel".

I seriously doubt that Sage is changing graphite material or tapers for repairs ,,,, they usually have a large inventory of spare rod sections in stock for repairs and do not custom roll individual replacement parts.

Graphite rods do change with heavy usage,,, they will get softer over time..... new sections may feel stiffer vs. older well broken in sections. This could explain some of the observations with returned rods changing in action or feel.

Regards,
FK
Spey Casting North East
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,937 Posts
I have CCS measured many rods and seen and compared other results and sometimes there are significant differences inside same model and line weight. Also blank spin might be done differently and it has slight influence to stiffness. Perhaps Sage later made TCX cracking ferrules thicker which increase weight?

Esa
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
I have CCS measured many rods and seen and compared other results and sometimes there are significant differences inside same model and line weight. Also blank spin might be done differently and it has slight influence to stiffness. Perhaps Sage later made TCX cracking ferrules thicker which increase weight?

Esa

Esa,

This was not a cracking ferrule issue,,, it was a loose ferrule fit up, perhaps owner induced or was not fitted properly at factory. The ferrule made a slight clicking noise when heavily flexed without any line. In comparing the very early to late production rods,,,, we found no differences in action or ferrule thickness.

Blank Spin,,,, if you are referring to the graphite flag and mandrel assembly, this is a very controlled process with all major rod manufacturers.

Rod to rod variation,,,,,, perhaps with rod blanks made in Asia this may be a problem,,,, they use a separate operation to grind the outside diameter of blanks to fit up ferrules, with the high end builders, the rod section that does not fit properly goes into the scrap bin and are destroyed.

The CCS is only a static deflection measurement of the tip section,,,,, it has very little, if any, relationship to the action of a rod when casting under load,,,, especially with two hand rods.

Regards,
FK
Spey Casting North East
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,780 Posts
Im going to tell you a little story about my experiences but with a different company..

I got my original rod and loved it so much I bought another as a back up....tried it and it was so different from the first one..(even thought the serial numbers were very close)... wouldn't even cast the same line set up... that I sold it...

I bought and 8wt version that i was told was the ultimate winter rod and the tip was so heavy I couldn't stand it and sold it...guy I talked to down there said.. "damn that's like the number one rod we sell and I can't believe you don't like it, everyone loves that rod and it's not tip heavy at all" I think he thought i was nuts...
couple years later I happened to pick up the same rod and it was completely different and not tip heavy at all...unfortunately it didn't cast nearly as well as the tip heavy one...had the same happen with one other rod as well...

I have been vary wary of ALL rods since then as I don't personally think you can make it identical...but will say that my Bruce and Walkers have been really damn close, even to the degree that the old heavier ones have very similar actions. Now touch wood on that as it so bums me out to have owned or tried and then ordered a rod that i loved and then have one that isn't the same....

This happened to me last week...

I was on my yearly trip last week and met up with Gene from B&W USA to show me around a bit and help me with my casting with a 70' nextcast on my new 15' powerlite....Between Gene and Brian S. (from burkie who I saw at the clave sat.) they had showed me a couple moves that REALLY helped me a lot with my casting and I can now say the 15' and 70' and i are great friends...But the point of the story is I was just loving my new rod and telling Gene I had never cast that far before...we were walking back to the truck and I ducked behind the guard rail as a logging truck came humming down the road...I felt a strong tug, stopped and unhooked my rod from the rail...tore the damn guide half way off...I almost puked...I was so bummed...all I had in the truck as back ups were my shorter rods and I had just found the grove with the big stick and didn't want to have to go back down to the 45 or 55' lines

I was very lucky to be with a class guy like Gene as he immediately said.."Give that rod and I'll take care of it" and handed me the same rod that he had just from Bruce and Walker to use as a demo before the trip...He let me keep that rod the rest of the week and I did very well with it...
Gene asked me if I noticed any difference (as this is something we talk about when trying one rod and then ordering one)..and If there was one I didn't notice it at all...
To be honest i almost didn't want to give it back as it got so much mojo..but I can't wait for my "black beauty" to come back now....

Now I'll never say never but so far i'm very happy with my experiences with B&W but I do put the rod through major trials when they arrive all the same...

Totally feel your pain though as I found that very maddening...glad it wasn't just me it's happened to though!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
xgolfman,

Your B&W rods are made in the UK,,,, rather inconsistent in graphite expoxy prepreg or mandrel/flag layup to experience the great variations you observed.

Rather common story with rods made in Asia,,, they make a run of perhaps 50-80 blanks for one specific rod. Then a new order is placed and the graphite epoxy prepreg is different or mandrels change or also very common,,,, a new subcontractor company is given the order,,, rods are not even close to the previous lot. They have the same label and color/graphics however, the action is not consistent.

One additional potential problem with rod blanks from Asia,,, the graphite epoxy prepreg is sensitive to temp and humidity,,,, variations will change the structural strength of the finished product.

Regards,
FK
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
Is loose ferrule fit/ferrule cracking not one in the same as one leads to the other?

BB~
Not at all,,, the slight clicking sound is loose fit in one specific area,,, the male section is moving in the fit up and making the noise,,, this does not necessarily lead to the female section cracking.

In addition, the cracking of the epoxy on the threat wraps does not always indicate the graphite structure of the rod blank is cracked. We have a friend who uses a very heavy fast downward stroke to a quick stop (almost horizontal). Most of his ferrules have cracked epoxy but structurally are holding up fine. When the rod blank is flexed, the round shape goes oval with the sides bulging outward,,, this sometime causes enough distortion to crack the epoxy finish.

Regards,
FK
 

·
Pupil of the river.
Joined
·
403 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Cracking

Interesting note about the "cracking" sound.

The original personality I loved in my TCX had a distinct cracking sound when the rod wasn't lined.

After it came back the first time, the cracking sound had been remedied and the personality of the rod had changed.

Could this be related?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,937 Posts
The CCS is only a static deflection measurement of the tip section,,,,, it has very little, if any, relationship to the action of a rod when casting under load,,,, especially with two hand rods.
CCS is static but very accurate tool to measure rod power and action when also the Moment of Inertia is measured. More sensitive than any caster!

For instance the rod spine effect to stiffness can be measured. Also the effect of snakes. MOI changes significantly when steel snakes are replaced with titanium alloy single leg guides. Skilled caster can notice them but measuring is accurate and easy.

Esa
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
CCS is static but very accurate tool to measure rod power and action when also the Moment of Inertia is measured. More sensitive than any caster!

For instance the rod spine effect to stiffness can be measured. Also the effect of snakes. MOI changes significantly when steel snakes are replaced with titanium alloy single leg guides. Skilled caster can notice them but measuring is accurate and easy.

Esa
Rod power,,, yes.
Action,,, well for where the bending occurs, mainly in the upper 1/3,,, somewhat.
It tells us nothing about recovery speed and counter bending of the material when actually casting the rod. Test this,,, take a older IM6 rod and a new modern graphite rod with the same static deflection curve,,, will they cast and feel the same? According to CCS they should be identical.


"•Moment of Inertia of a body depends on the distribution of mass in a body with respect to the axis of rotation"
Where do we define the axis of rotation,,, at the casters hands,,,, in the center of the rod blank? How does bending the rod to the 1/3 blank length define MOI? The fly line also significantly changes the MOI,,, this is totally discounted in CCS tables.

With a modern fly rod the spine is a non issue,,,, it is very difficult to determine a significant spine with present rod construction.

Esa, I always enjoy your contributions and discussions.

Regards,
FK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
So...let me get this straight!

Any manufacturing of graphite outside of the U.S.A. has no ability for climate or humidity control? Basically, the graphite is stored outside the "shack" until the next 50-80 blanks are needed...Then they are manufactured with no controls in place...using different -or- potentially the same pre-preg as the originals and on different mandrels with different diameters in such a way that the rods are spot-on cosmetic clones of the last batch yet cast entirely differently and have no ability to be fixed should any of the four original sections accidently be broken?

Rod batches are limited to somewhere between 50-80 units no matter the demand -or- pre ordered units + plus guessed-timation of asap re-order.

In effect, this means: Bruce & Walker, Gaelforce, Carron, Hardy, Loop, Orvis, Beulah etc. and so forth have no control for consistency in any way shape or form?

We know what rod companies you like...and that is great...loyalty is a pretty rare thing these days, but, what I am reading is beyond ridiculous and getting annoying.

Last, just for the sake of argument...I would say that epoxy cracks perpendicular or with the thread wraps are generally not graphite problems whereas checks in the epoxy parallel with the blank are generally cracked composite.

BB~
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
BB,

The graphite epoxy prepreg is not stored outside the shack,,, it is kept in the shack in freezers until needed for the individual days production run.

If the flags are cut in batches and temp rises too quickly prior to the clave operation,,,, the mechanical properties will change.

Not all rod blanks made in Asia are carelessly manuf. with little quality control. I have 8-10 spey rods from four different companies with manuf. in China/Korea that are good casting rods with no problems over the past 5-6 years.
They do not compare to the performance of USA made rods.
Ferrules that require taping.
Crap cork quality.
"Hit a wall" when pushed for distance,,, below optimum casting performance.

Regards,
FK
 

·
Carp aficionado
Joined
·
1,214 Posts
I agree with Bruce that these blanket statements are beyond ridiculous. I have 3 Asian blanks (1 Vision & 2 Loops) that see regular use. Ferrules fit great and don't need tape. As good of cork or better than my premium USA rods (they are T&T, Sage, and Winston). No performance wall is hit.
 

·
Scandit sublima virtus
Joined
·
2,254 Posts
I got a new butt section on my Greased Liner this year and it went from being a great stick to some kind of supernatural mind-melded extension of my will...

so I'm not arguing with it! hehe But just about every time I've gotten a rod back with a new section the feel changes. A few exceptions, but mostly I can tell the difference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
I Don't Know!

Somebody better tell Travis Johnson that the Bruce & Walker blank he designed and I built for him to compete with at Spey-O-Rama 2014 "Hit a Wall" when it was pushed for distance...so...he was only half way through the back pond (which is all the way out of his pond + the concrete walkway and then some) with a record setting cast. He should have been in the trees past the back pond if he woulda just used some good 'ole 'merican graphite w/ decent fitting ferrules and better quality cork.

I am not buying any of that crap: Loop Goran Anderson's, Beulah Platinums/Onyx, McKenzie DTX, Visions, Guidelines, Bruce & Walkers, Gaelforce, JHC, Daiwa, Carron, Hardy and Orvis sticks "hit a wall" when pushed for distance.

I am done ranting now...back to the original question of the 7126 Deathstar. I guided the Deschutes for a bunch of years...lots of clients showed up with those sticks. I would happily give them a try when asked if I wanted to give it a swat or two. I had 4 or 5 of them in my hands. I noticed that they were extremely damp and the more you stepped on the pedal...the more you would get out of it right to the point of being violent with it. Never noticed difference in actions...I did notice that some showed up with a proper line match and others showed up grossly under/over-lined.

Would I buy one? No...are there other Sage rods (made in the U.S.A.) that I would own...sure. I always thought the 7136 Z was a really nice stick.

BB~
 

·
''Speydo-masochist''
Joined
·
1,265 Posts
xgolfman,

Your B&W rods are made in the UK,,,, rather inconsistent in graphite expoxy prepreg or mandrel/flag layup to experience the great variations you observed.

Rather common story with rods made in Asia,,, they make a run of perhaps 50-80 blanks for one specific rod. Then a new order is placed and the graphite epoxy prepreg is different or mandrels change or also very common,,,, a new subcontractor company is given the order,,, rods are not even close to the previous lot. They have the same label and color/graphics however, the action is not consistent.

One additional potential problem with rod blanks from Asia,,, the graphite epoxy prepreg is sensitive to temp and humidity,,,, variations will change the structural strength of the finished product.

Regards,
FK
I read the post as saying that there was no discernable difference between the Bruce & Walkers????

Regards, Tyke.
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
Top