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Damn fish ladder
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all-

Anyone have any experience with larger two-handed overhead rods. While I am intrigued by the CND Atlantis (and may yet get one), I really like the extra 4-5 feet of a longer rod for the shore and rocks fishing I do.

The only blank maker who seems to make REALLY STIFF long rods is Talon. Am I wrong? I'm looking for something to launch shooting heads 130-150' into the surf in Long Island.

I'd love all opinions and ideas-

Best-

brooklynangler
 

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Bob Meiser. is coming out with 'longer rods.'

and at (my understanding) a better 'price;' and we all know the quality of his rods. http://www.meiserflyrods.com/

Give him a call and tell him what you need. Being a Board Sponc., you'll get every thing your hearts desire ... including .. no you don't.:eek:

All of Bob's rods are simi-custom to the buyer; gather that in the hundreds of rods he's built only one (1) has ever been sent back. Now that's a hell of a recommendation.:smokin:
 

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Damn fish ladder
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Discussion Starter #3
Mesier SW series

Hey THANKS!! That 13' one he makes looks to be the teats.

ANYONE own the MEISER 131213? Any thoughts?

BEst-

Joe
 

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Pullin' Thread
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The Talon Midgar rods will do what you are looking for as will several of Meiser's rods.

Another way to go is look at using the T&T 1309 or for even heavier lines, the T&T 1410 or the Loomis GLX 14' 9/10. All of these rods should be able to cast a head the 150 ft you wish. Remember to use a Scandanavian head (a 9/10 with the 1309, and a 10/11 with the two 14 ft rods mentioned) that is cut back to 37 or 38 ft to get the needed grains to load the rod. Use the shooting line of your choice and watch the line simply fly out yonder.

Even the T&T 1208 casts heavier heads than the CND Atlantis or T&T 1212. Just remember to use a Scandanavian head and cut it back to 37 or 38 ft.

Heck if you really want to toss it nearly out of sight, you can go to the fast 15 and 16 ft 10/11 weight rods, use a 12/13 Scandanavian head cut back to 38 ft, and mono running line. Such a combination should be able to get you out to 180 or so feet. You could also get one of the Loomis GLX 17 ft blanks that Rajeff uses for his 2-hand distance casting, load it with an 1800 gr 45 or 50 ft head, use mono running line, and watch the line go 200 ft or so.

The key is to use one of the faster, 13 ft or longer 9 or 10 wt rods with the cut back Scandanavian head.

That said, Meiser's rods are very hard to beat and I would get in touch with him to see what he could come up with for you. Besides, Meiz fishes with several of his rods in the surf off the Oregon coast.
 

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JD
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distance blanks

[You could also get one of the Loomis GLX 17 ft blanks that Rajeff uses for his 2-hand distance casting,]

Not to bad mouth anyone but,,,,,the guys I have talked to that use those ACA (Loomis) blanks for competition distance casting, have told me that they are not suitable for fighting fish. Too thin walled.

I would strongly reccomend that you talk to Steve Rajeff at Loomis and be very speciofic as to what you intend to do with the rod before purchasing a blank designed for distance casting. Steve is a very nice guy, and if you don't get him on the first try, he will return your call. He will talk to you.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Brooklynangler -

You mentioned rock and surf - you got my curiosity. I've spent 9 years thinking this through but one never knows, I could have come to the wrong conclusions. I am hoping I did my homework but I am open to everyone's observations, they can only help raise the awareness. So here are a few questions I'd have pertaining to the use of more common two-handed rod lengths...

Clearly the bigger sticks will cast further but...

Are you able to reach your fish to release them with such long rods from slippery rocks?

Do you find holding such big rods against a stiff wind a burden over a long day?

When you strip the fly, do you point the rod at the fly in a current to minimize the slack to the business end of the line?

How do you hold the rod during the retrieve and how much line do you leave out there between each cast?

What is your hook-setting technique?

Would you ever use it from a boat?

How about when wading on a flat?


Thanks in advance
 

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Damn fish ladder
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199 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Juro-

These are excellent questions that I can't answer as I only use my spey rods in the urban environs around NYC. These are SPEY rods (a hexagraph and a batson), most definitely.

Out in Long Island and in the surf, I have been using a Scott STS 909, a basket, and either a floating line or a 45' head (too long) and amnesia (sucks).

The points you make certainly make me think about the atlantis again.

I'm also contemplating a move away from NYC and think that those Meiser 13' 13wt rods, while awesome, are not something I could EVER find a use for even muskie hunting, while the atlantis would be great for lake fishing for muskie and pike.

Do you have an atlantis floating around the North East I might be able to test? Please feel free to contact me off list on that one... jwest13(at)nyc.rr.com

Best-

Brooklynangler Joe West
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Joe -

Thanks for the reply.

Actually a rod like Meiser's 13ft sounds pretty good to me, I was referring to the 15-17ft rods mentioned in the thread.

The 11fter is no panacea but I find it very manageable.

See ya on the water
 

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Hi BrooklynAngler,

Take a pass on the ACA G. Loomis 17' two-hander for fishing (it's actually IMX graphite not GLX). I used to own one of those, and it's a real beast: it's designed for short, timed casting events not sustained fishing. I can't think of any other two-handers that are designed to load with 120 GRAMS (although it would make for an interesting bit of trivia...).

Besides, it's expensive. For the price of the 17-footer, you could buy a couple of two-handers from either CND or R.B. "Meiz" the Master, or one rod from both!

Either company will put your fly where the fish are breaking...
 

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Damn fish ladder
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Discussion Starter #11
Aye Aye

I'm far too clumsy for a tournament casting blank.

also, at $600 for the blank alone from the ACA, it would seem to be a little much.

I'm talking to Meiser about his 10/11 13'6 overhead rod. The 1313 is just too much of a claymore for me ;)

I still like the post hammer made some months ago about wanting a super stiff 26' 2-hander. Me too. Couldn't probably set the hook at those distances, but to be able to hit the statue of liberty from where I fish would be interesting...and would probably land me in jail.

My original interest in this kind of rod is this: I'm tired of being outclassed by the weather.

I get so few good fishing days per year that if I can't get the fly to the fish because of some wind or simply the distance between me and the fish, it's worth $500 to me. I think about those five says I spent out in the Hamptons last September and how the wind just defeated me ALL FIVE DAYS!!! Shinnecock bay was like a darned windstorm...even sheltered water was annoyingly windy.

I want a rod where I can slam out the big flies we often use and not end up with a sore shoulder.

I sincerely appreciate the help and if anyone is in the NYC area, hit me off list if you want to go fishing.

BEst-

Joe West
jwest(at)nyc.rr.com
 

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Damn fish ladder
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Discussion Starter #12
One more thing

If I may mention-- I started this thread because there is a guy in Australia who is really into long overhead rods for salt and monster casts.

The only problem I've heard is that he has a heck of a time hooking fish much past 150.

Who is HONESTLY fishing at distances like this?

I usually steelhead in Erie, PA and could just as easily use my hands as a fly rod ;) ... if you've ever fished some of those tiny streams, you know what I mean. I really long for a hard day of getting to practice my casting, but in Erie there ain't much casting to be done!

Anyone care to weigh in on the practicalities of 120+ hookups? I've never had one past 80'.

The amount of stretch has got to be huge. Rio should make running line with a gel-spun core to cut down on stretch. Doesn't some manufacturer make fly lines with GSP core? Can't remember who.

Just some thoughts.

Joe
 

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mercy!

i don't think i wanted an overhead rod as i was quite capable with single handers,i wanted two handers so i didn't have to overhead,and after buying a pile of tackle;i'm gettin' there,but,i have a `setup' i've used this winter on a Daiwa 18-12 that will shoot line like the atlantis video;amnesia running line,but during the `shoot'if the line wads up,or sticks in the water while wading,you don't get the 150,or plus ft. casts,and these are short sessions on the water,dictated by ol' man winter,the great thing about the longrod is;i can keep the fly in the water;lift the line over brush,keep the searching drift going while walking downriver,nothing like surf environs,i'm hooking fish at 90 ft,i the average person;non fly fisher,doesn't really have a handle on distance,but WE do,because,we know how long the lines we use ARE,no,a full action rod's for me,most of the time,i'm still figuring out why a DT line works SO well with the longrods and a windcutter's a joke,but THAT"S another post,oh and i 'll add you better use both hands fully or you WILL feel it in your shoulder,and other parts:hehe: :hehe: :hehe: :hehe: :hehe:
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Here are a few points to ponder based on almost a decade of research on the topic:

- Reaching over 120ft in a 50 foot surf zone gives you 70 feet of retrieve BEFORE you put your fly in the turbulence.

- Reaching 120-140ft in a rip current dramatically increases the swath of your swing with a high density line over a sandy bottom laced with humps and big stripers with the feed bag on, simple geometry.

- It takes 3 seconds to throw that far with an Atlantis... over 30 to retrieve the fly, thus providing a 10:1 return on a single backcast with no double hauling. More time in the water means more fish, for example I've gone 9 fish on to 5 other anglers' one fish on while standing side by side.

- The Atlantis is 8-9" longer from grip to tip than your 9ft rod. The 13'6" rod is probably 38-39" longer from grip to tip. If you are trying to reach a fish, this 3 ft can make a big difference.

- A lightweight two-hander brings a whole new dimension to flats sight fishing. More on that soon :smokin:

- Wind against a "too-long" rod tires you out while retrieving a fly, as do rods that have a lot of reverberation while stripping.

I could go on and on but suffice it to say, try a two-handed rod that was specifically made for fishing the coast before you decide whether there is an advantage over single handed rods in certain conditions (e.g. surf, big flies, rip currents, etc).

I am as big of a spey casting enthusiast as anyone. I am also as big of a two-handed overhand ocean angler as anyone. I know there is a clear difference, and they are both very different from the trusty single hander, which still is irreplaceable in it's own right. All three have distinct and highly valuable places in a compleat angler's arsenal.
 

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i'm with Juro

i don't think a `spey' casting 20 ft'rs what you need,the atlantis sounds like a rod you need to try,t-t 12by 12 sounds hot,didn't know about Miez,s 13x13,but you could probably throw whole lobster's for bait,as well as a bottle of champagne with it!,but for reference,you COULD take several rods and cut, weld,er,,,splice up a rod as long as you want,look at surfcaster's built for spinning,,,!?,,,,,,one thing about the beach is the sand,with the longrods you MUST set the handle down somewhere to get to the fish,so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,why not ten x ten,maybe with an extension lower removable grip,you're looking for a `poolcue' type action is what you're saying,,?,,why not get a floatrod blank,build from there?
 
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Well questions. Barry uses a 15 talon and casts 150 feet and I have one, and a loop blackline 8/912'4" and both are very long casting.
The problem is lines, or heads. So far I have a loop 10/11 intermediate head and a Rio SSH floating head in 10/11 and I have a few T40's which I use on the Loop. I'm getting a couple of Loop adaptive heads, one for the talon and one for the Loop.
I have a 45' AirFlo 9# sinking head that I tried on the Loopp 8/9 but it doesn't work. Probably a 12# 45' AirFlo sinking head might work.
Off rocks the rod is about the same as any long rod used off rocks, and the problems with landing fish are no different. You don't do much release off rocks, especially ocean rocks and you need someone to operate the gaff.
The problem with 9 foot rods off ocean rocks is that casting distances are relatively short and DH rods give a longer cast potential with bigger flies.
I don't do much rock fishing in wind, with anything and if the wind gets up, I just quit. Its a pointless exercise trying the beat southerly winds on rocks.
I think that rods are just rods and my limited experience with DH rods tells me that we don't use them enough particularly on flats.
I always use sinking heads, because of water drag, and don't have problems hooking fish at 100 feet with 9 footers and can't see why hookups should be a problem with longer casts with DH rods.
Admittedly I use different shooting lines, like GsP stuffed 20lb braided monofilament, or lately a 200lb hollow GsP braid stuffed with 10kg monofilament. I find that GsP shooting lines are pretty good but hard on hands.
Right now I not doing any fishing, waiting for the usual run of Australian Salmon to appear locally.
Another reason is that I have a dose of broncitis, again, and am on antibiotics which are a bit fussy about sun exposure and its pretty hot around here right now. Thats smoking for you, it really upsets lungs.
But I'm glad I got into DH rods, is a new experience. I have to say I love T40's on the Loop 8/9 blckline but wish Bruce would increase the core b/s. They certainly go over the hill and are, or the concept is, absolutely spot on for ocean rock fly fishing. Max
 

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Good evening Brooklynangler.
I am that Barry Max is talking about.
And after reading the posting on your question, I am starting to think .....

Some answers to yours and others questions.
Yes, Ive had a few measured 150 casts while fishing, most casts are around 140plus feet with a single 2/0 sized fly.
With 2 x 2/0 flies around 130plus feet.

Hooking fish way out isn't a problem ! If your going to fish with a lot of sweep/belly in the line then maybe a circle hook would be of advantage. I use the plain old J type hook.

My running/hauling/shooting line is measured with waterproof marker pen numbers, therefore I know the honest distance every cast flies to.

Rod, I use a Talon Midgar 10/11w 15 foot.

Line, I was using a RIO SSH 11/12w full lenght, however both lines I tried started to develope faults after about 100 hours of casting, I am now testing another brand that has a different front taper and as such presents the line on the water fair better, in fact a huge improvement !

"Wind, it isn't a problem when a 'too long' a rod is used etc."

This problem is caused if the rod has not been balanced to the reel, or the reel balanced to the rod, then it will be a monsters problem just as casting would be.
And I think wind here in Australia would be like wind in America.

"The only problem I've heard is that he has a heck of a time hooking fish much past 150."
News to me, I have a heck of a time getting past a true 150 feet.

"Who is HONESTLY fishing at distances like this?"
Me and you may find there are numbers of people quitely trying to reach out to fish the magical 150 foot mark. These people seem to talk/write to one another privately becuse there are funny people who 'knock' the mad guys who want to reach out.
There are fly fishing companies who are developing products to help the mad guys like me and .......

'The amount of stretch has got to be huge.'
Yes, but so would the 20pound B/S monofilament the beach/surf casters use, don't hear them crying.
Another way of looking at this stretch is this is your shock absorber for sudden impacts, your friend.

'Tournament Doubles'
unsuitable for constant fishing.

Some very good questions, and well worth thinking about in depth.
From Juro.
"Are you able to reach your fish to release them with such long rods from slippery rocks?"
This is a fairly easy task, simply slip your hand up the rod, past the first stripper guid, then its only a 10 foot or so rod to work with. These system saves me falling all over ocean rocks, which wouldn't be too nice.

"Do you find holding such big rods against a stiff wind a burden over a long day?"
I don't and I am a little fella, the question is answered above.

"When you strip the fly, do you point the rod at the fly in a current to minimize the slack to the business end of the line?"
This question could be written in a book form because there are so many answers.
I do both, sometime a hard line, rod pointed down the fly line. Other times depending on the fly and waters action on the fly, I hold the rod up at 45degrees, this results in the fly moving fast then slowing down but not stopped, then it is always moving between the strips of my hands, this seamly slack line does not cause failed hook-ups and Tailor, your Blues love the constant action.

"What is your hook-setting technique"
In fact I haven't hand set a hook like I would with a single handed 9 footer, I believe the weight of the fly line in the water helps drive the hook into its victim.

"Would you ever use it from a boat"
Just stand at one end, you will have between 12 and xxxx number of feet to land your fish in, I haven't had a problem. Or just move your hand up the rod.

'How about when wading on a flat?'
And Heaven made Doubles for fishing the flats, its fantastic !.
Just roll cast 80/100, take 2 steps sidewards anther roll cast, this requires zero effort and total enjoyment. Again I believe that they will be the rod of the flats in the future.

Talon Cairnton range of rods in Doubles are no longer made.
What has replaced them are the Midgars which were specially designed for Overhead Casting.

I would like to add the only must for long rods is, the package must be balanced, with a very slight tip down. This is the factor that causes all the problems, it effects casting and retrieve.

Kind regards.
Barry Ryan.
I am a Talon Fly Fishing Products agent.
 
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I have to say that when it comes to ocean rock fly fishing, I reckon I have as much experience as anyone on the planet. I don't find it difficult to handle fish on spinning gear or 9 foot fly gear, principally because you are never alone.
DH rods have a large number of advantages in a lot of areas, as Barry has pointed out just roll casting a 15 footer can out cast and out perform a 9 foot outfit any day of the week. It also provides a fly action you have to see to believe.
If we talk about flats then I think the 12'6" 9# rods would be absolutely the best thing to use. Light, long casting and capable of handling most things that you strike.
I have hooked a lot of big fish off rocks in past times but believe that 9 fioot rods have serious limitations, when you compare them to 10/11 Talon Midgars in the 12/13 foot range.
With GsP braids and stuffed shooting lines, the mono stretch factor is removed, you get rid of knots and with modern large reels like the OF 5" Nautilus the inertia is down, even with lots of backing loads. Balance in any fly rod is important and DH outfits are no different. What is important is the ease of use, the lack of effort and even if you don't cast 150 feet every time, you can cast 120 feet as easy as pie, all day long.
I don't use floating or intermediate lines, I have them, but I prefer sinking lines, fast sinking at that, because of low water drag and less wind resistance. And that factor has definitely put a blocker on my fishing with these rods. No suitable sinking lines. Also they take up less space on a reel, which is important. Which is why I think T40 SA lines are probably the best lines to use on 8/9 12'DH rods, or even 13/14 foot 9# rods. One day SA might produce a functional fishing T40.
And a T85 for the Meiser 13/13 brute stick.
For all of the fishing that has been done by Spey anglers there are few lines for DH overhead rods, that really suit the oceanic environment. Big thick ropes are not really serious salt water equipment, if you are talking about ocean rocks among pelagic species like Tuna and mackerels or hunky GT's.
Max
 

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Good morning Max and Charlie.
Max your 100% right saying the Doubles in Salt market require a full sink line, one like a RIO SSH or a suitable T40 type of line, because who ever produces the first workable line, that doesn't start to fail at around 100 hours or so will surely be in the driveing seat of a whole new market.

At first the market will be slow however the tide will turn and then it will be a rush.

Because everybody, existing single handed casters, that I have taken fishing have acted real strange after about 10 minutes of fishing, they all, have stopped casting with their little rods and watched, then, give me a go. After some instruction these same fellas reached out 120 plus feet for the first time in their life. The silly smile said it all. I now have orders for real rods, double handed rods.

In one case the chap didn't have a suitable reel to match the balance, this will be over come till he saves and buys a new reel with strips of lead wrapped around the reel seat.

I like you believe that the market for this kind of fishing tool has been held back because of the lack of suitable lines but once this changes, look out fish, we are after you.

Charlie.
Why not try Talon direct, the chap to ask for is Dwight Waggner, his email is:- [email protected]

And before anybody asks about being a sponser with this site, I have tried a number of times, but failed because our site wasn't suitable...............

I have not directed this possible sale to our business, just trying to help someone into the wonderful World of Saltwater Double casting and Overhead casting.
Kind regards.
Barry Ryan.
I am a Talon Fly Fishing Products agent.
 
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