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I have been under the impression that adding tungsten tips (T-8, T-14, etc) was dependant on the grain weight of the tip being within the range window of your rod, but was recently told this:"This is true for scandi, however for skagit the tip size does not really matter as it is all waterborn anchor and your not aerializing the t stuff like you would with scandi. Scandi doesnt have the forward mass to lift a heavy head from the water, insert the roll cast to lift the tip up. T Material is best left to skagit, where its meant to be. Hope I didn't confuse anyone;-)".
Is this in fact true? I use a water anchor with both style heads (am I doing it wrong?)
 

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If I understand right, T material is only used for Skagit?

No, I have used T8 and T10 while using a Scandi. You have to remember that the tip of a scandi is smaller and diameter than a Skagit, so in which it will not turn over higher T material easily.

This is where the poly leader came in to fit the tapers of Scandi lines.

I know there will be more people to chime in and have more experience than me with scandi's. When I go any sinking tip, it is normally on a Skagit and just use the scandi for dry and mono leaders.
 

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BH has got it right as I understand the what goes with what.

If I understand right, T material is only used for Skagit?

No, I have used T8 and T10 while using a Scandi. You have to remember that the tip of a scandi is smaller and diameter than a Skagit, so in which it will not turn over higher T material easily.

This is where the poly leader came in to fit the tapers of Scandi lines.

I know there will be more people to chime in and have more experience than me with scandi's. When I go any sinking tip, it is normally on a Skagit and just use the scandi for dry and mono leaders.
Short runs of T-8 can be used with a Scandi line, but above that a 'no go' for all practical purpose (personal experience only). For a cross reference take a peek at the grain weight sinking Poly leaders. Grain wise, all really are darned light regardless of the posted "sink rate."

Another of 'If memory serves,' Pollies come in three lengths (brand dependent): 10', 12' and 15. The 10' will blast out on a Scandi, the 12 is cutting edge unless you really have your timing down to a razor's edge. 15? A total waste of money unless you cut off the forward flat section of tapper. Can 'hinge' like heck unless you have some 'Mass in the ###' behind the thing.

Just my .02 cents.:D

fae
 

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Good man.

I am with ya fred
To be honest, after the first four or five casts to get the feel of the rod, I'm fishing. Can I lay out 120' feet of line ... well at one time it was a 'no problem.'

Now the question is where do you think a fish might be .... 30 feet, 50 feet or 90'ish. Will pull off a rod from the Jeeps rod carrier and go at it from there.
 

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Now you're talking a 'switch rod.'

Shoot most of my casts are between 30-60 feet. If I hit 80 damn am I doing good
Candidly I've never seen anyone actually use one of these as a '1hander,' but with lighter rods ... could work? Beauty of these things, properly line ... CALL Steve Godshall and have him make one for you! ... Is you can 'cast short and fish short.' Full on spey rod and you're toast with normal 'commercial built' lines.

A long rod 'Tain't going to work for short casts. Others may disagree, but I'll buy into that after I see them do same. Only 'option' that comes to mind is a VERY heavy short line out the rod tip for those close in casts.

But think about it a moment .... how many Steelhead have 'you' actually hooked much beyond the beach you're standing on? Only one's I've hooked actually hooked themselves. More to it than that, but I think you may get my point.

Again, just my .02 cents.

fae
 

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A long rod 'Tain't going to work for short casts. Others may disagree, but I'll buy into that after I see them do same. Only 'option' that comes to mind is a VERY heavy short line out the rod tip for those close in casts.
Fred, Please clarify your above statement. It sounds like you're saying one can't make a 10' or 15' cast with a 14' or 15' rod.


I use a water anchor with both style heads (am I doing it wrong?)
Professori, If your casts are going out there then you aren't doing it wrong.
 

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Hi MIke!

Fred, Please clarify your above statement. It sounds like you're saying one can't make a 10' or 15' cast with a 14' or 15' rod.
To respond directly to your question is the vast majority of us don't use 'long' or heavy weight rods for Steelhead fishing. I can think of a couple of genuine exceptions to that; ever wonder where the term Skagit this/that/what ever came from? That is one hell of big river ..... :eek:

No offense intended but the Clearwater (spell that right?) is an 'over sized creek' vs that bit in Northern Washington. Now, well back in the day, 'we' used chunks of lead core line for sink tips. No other choice save for using a 'drift rod' with 1 to 3 oz of lead for a 'just tap the bottom.'

Can't speak for now, but doubt much has changed over the years. Deep, down and dirty with a huge fly of some sort or you've just pissed away the cost of the Petrol in your car. For perspective: Think 'Intruders.'

fae
 

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fredaevans;561977 15? A total waste of money unless you cut off the forward flat section of tapper. Can 'hinge' like heck unless you have some 'Mass in the ###' behind the thing. Just my .02 cents.:D fae[/QUOTE said:
Fred, have to disagree with you on this one, the 15' Rio's and the 14' AirFlow's work very well, especially with shorter Scandi heads. They provide a good anchor for T&G casts.
 

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To respond directly to your question is the vast majority of us don't use 'long' or heavy weight rods for Steelhead fishing. I can think of a couple of genuine exceptions to that; ever wonder where the term Skagit this/that/what ever came from? That is one hell of big river .....

No offense intended but the Clearwater (spell that right?) is an 'over sized creek' vs that bit in Northern Washington. Now, well back in the day, 'we' used chunks of lead core line for sink tips. No other choice save for using a 'drift rod' with 1 to 3 oz of lead for a 'just tap the bottom.'

Can't speak for now, but doubt much has changed over the years. Deep, down and dirty with a huge fly of some sort or you've just pissed away the cost of the Petrol in your car. For perspective: Think 'Intruders.'
Fred,
All of the above not withstanding it looked to me like you said one couldn't make a short cast with a long rod and NOTHING could be further from the truth no matter what river one is fishing.
 

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I've taken to making 36 & 48" lengths of T-14 with a braided loop on each end and using them the same way that I use the Beartooth Braided Lead Heads. The result is the same and I fish with a variety of lines none of which are Scandi or Skagit heads. If the whole idea is to get a fly deeper in the water all you have to do is some experimenting and you'll find a proper system.

I get my flies down, I don't spend a lot of time wondering if there was any hinging or other quirks in the cast. I focus on where I wanted to see that 'splat' of the fly landing and then I make it work from there. Almost 100% of the time I have either the T material or a lead head in the mid of my leader. The exception came when I started using those big Sculpin patterns with the weighted heads. In all but the extreme water I don't need the weighted leader when the fly has weight. For all the standard salmon type flies without weight the sections in the leader seem to get it done as far as depth goes. I don't want readers to think that I have no care about a nice cast but I am really all about where the fly lands and not how it looked when on the way there. Generally if it lands where I wanted it the cast probably looked pretty good.

I've never used a long piece of this T material but have tried fishing with 15' Hi Density sink tips which are about the same thing. Fishing was not fun that way, there was thrashing and splashing. There were more bad casts and pileups than good at some times; rather than to go to a totally different line system I just sat down and gave the problem some thought. Really, sat on a folding chair at my campsite and thought it out. I removed the sink tip, put on a 65' floating line with a 36" head in the middle of my leader. 6' of heavy mono for the butt - 36" head - 4' of 15 pound tippet and then I went back to fishing.

That was 2011, prior to that I was running with the herd. I had been using the lead heads with single hand rods since 1994, but this is Spey casting so I had to buy and do what everyone else was buying and doing. Now I enjoy fishing with my rods, even though the plan was to have just one and I ended up with 6, I use the same means to sink my leader & fly with every rod & line I own. Lucky for me there are very few 2 hand casters around so there is no one to tell me I'm doing this wrong :) I am having fun with it and catching enough fish that I don't see any drastic changes coming style wise. Heck, it took until this season before I bought any of the T material, I figured I better have some so that people didn't think I am out of touch with things too much.

I don't know if any of that was relevant to this original post but it's too late now,

Ard
 

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Thread Hijack :eek:

I was using 25 pound maxima but as the flies got a little bigger I went to 40 pound mono. For weighted Sculpins which are a pretty good payload I am making a tapered leader.

Taper = 50 pound butt dropping to 40 with a double surgeon knot then to 30 using a tested blood knot - then 25 - 20 and tippet of 15 unless I really believe I need 12.

The lengths are not something I have in memory but they end up as a 12 - 13' leader. The butt is rather long and then I just scale them down into 2 foot lengths or close to it, some as short as 18" in the turnover zone of the leader.

The leader with the sinking mid have the 30 or 40 pound butt with a perfection loop on each end. This loops to the lead head or T-14 section at 36" then the tippet loops to the weighted section.

When casting these you have only your fly and a 36" section of line wanting to sink on you as you make ready the forward cast. Even if it sinks a bit a long belly line will pick it up and send it out. For me this is much better than long sink tips.
 

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No worries-argument on my part here.

Disagreement/personal experience is what 'counts.' For context to my comment (personal experience) a 7wt rod (with one short 8wt exception) is as high as I go. On the upper Rogue really no need to go higher save for chasing King Salmon or Coho's.

Line grains on the typical Scandi head (for those rods) won't be all that 'much.' Looking at a few 'examples' of current Scandi lines the manufacturer(s) may have done away with the forward tapper tip (a blunt end like a Skagit). That's a game changer as now you have 'Mass in the A$$' to transfer to the T 'what-ever.'

That said, repeating myself here I think, look at sinking Poly leaders. Even with the heaviest you would be hard pressed to find one at 150 grains. Is RIO/Airflow trying to tell us something? To get to 150 grains you'd need a tad short of 14' of T-11. T-17 would be about 9 foot. Etc.

Again, just my thoughts/experience on the subject at hand.

Fred

On this subject many have forgotten more that I know ... but I just use what fits my needs and the fishing situation.
 

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No offense intended but the Clearwater (spell that right?) is an 'over sized creek' vs that bit in Northern Washington.
Can't agree with you there Fred. Having fished both, I would they they are pretty comparable. One difference is I think the CW has a higher gradient in its lower reaches (near the mouth) than the Skagit. In my experience, Skagit fish are more inclined to hold in close so longer casts are not called for as frequently as they are on the CW. The other difference is on the whole, the CW has more consistent structure than the Skagit. It is not that the Skagit doesn't have boulder gardens but they are spread out.
 

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For once I'm going to get FRACKING ANGERY.

PEOPLE, PEOPLE, PEOPLE ... go back to my original post ... IS SAID PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. :saevilw::saevilw::saevilw:

If you're mileage varies, good on you. I really don't give a shxt.

As I said, 'I'm not amused,' as the Queen of England is reported to have said.

fae
 

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Sorry you are not amused Fred. Wasn't trying to attack you just saying in my opinion, as someone who has spent considerable time around both rivers, your statement was wrong.
 

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My appoligies ST, just in a really dark place health wise at the moment.

Sorry you are not amused Fred. Wasn't trying to attack you just saying in my opinion, as someone who has spent considerable time around both rivers, your statement was wrong.
Health has been in the tank for several weeks but all these frickin pills I have to swallow twice a day have done their job. Last couple of days have been feeling pretty darned good save for the odd off 'Ah Shxt' not again. :saevilw: End game is you loose your sense of humor; not a good thing.

Go back to bed and roll up/hug the old Yellow Lab and take another nap.

As the Chinese Curse would go: "May you live in interesting times."

Fred
 
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