[Rick Whorwood]

Hi spey Casters

I'm glad to see something positive has come from our lively discussion on the Spey certification program. I also look forward to this new forum. As Dana said let the fun begin.

The Switch Cast !!

This cast has a number of different names,
The Grant Switch, The Devon switch, The Switch, Alexander Switch.
Could someone step up to the plate and explain the difference between these casts if any. Also are there any others (Switch Cast) and if so how would they differ.
Part of the FFF process is to keep things simple when instructing, may I make the suggestion that we first go into the details of this cast (let's get technical), then brake it down to a simplistic form.
It might even be fun to throw in a little history, about this cast.



Thanks
Rick

 

[silverdoc]

defining "swaitch cast"

Regardless of whether or not it's a spey or roll cast, the switch cast returns to its original,(approximate), position on the water. IOW, there is no major change of direction.

 

[flysoup]

switch cast

I understand the switch cast to be in the same direction but longer or shorter that where the fly was before the cast.
As in fishing up or down stream. As the fly drifts you reposition it as needed in the same direction just more up stream or closer to you to repeat the drift.
If not why waste the time. OR am I missing something here.
ol Flysoup

 

[FlyFishAR]

same but different

Hey Allen!

The more I thought about it most of the switch casters I know are surf casters or still water casting. Not to mention that switch casting looks pretty impressive in the indoor castin pool. I am really losing something conceptually on how to maintain a 180 degree opposition to a spey cast though. I never really thought about it before, I just "did it". the next time I hit the river I am going to figure out how that is working.

I spent a year thinking under hand casting was some sort of funky Belgian cast looking thing as opposed to leading with the bottom hand. As diverse as spey casting is "geographically" there are bound to be some misunderstandings of terminology.

Great question Rick! I can't wait to see if someone has the answer!

John

 

[Dana]

When Henrik Mortensen and I cast 2 years ago I pointed out the names of all of these casts he was doing and he smiled knowingly at me and said "well, they are all just underhand casts with a change of direction thrown in" and of course he was right. I think we could create a lot of new casts by splitting hairs and saying this or that is different than the other so it is an entirely new cast, and on one hand I think that is fine for clarity but on the other hand I think it is bad for clarity because it can confuse new casters (or not so new casters like me! )

As I understand it the switch is simply forming a live line D loop and casting the fly back to where it started, the basic improved roll cast that is the building block of spey casting. Pivot about the hips a little to make this same cast at 45 degrees to the flow and now you have a single spey. There are a bunch of different ways to make the single spey, and some have distinctive characteristics (like the Grant Switch for example), but I think it can get down to the splitting of hairs. I have heard the name Devon Switch before but I have never seen a description of it and haven't had it demonstrated to me so I don't know what it is exactly, but I'm guessing it is one of the single spey variations.

Case in point: I cast single spey with a combination of the Grant Switch, the underhand cast and elements of overhead casting, with a custom made extended belly spey line. It is distinctive and very powerful and I haven't seen a lot of other people do this (in fact, I haven't seen anyone else do this), so I guess I could lay claim to a new cast--can I call this the Thompson Switch or the Thompson single? Perhaps, but I just call it a single spey. Now, I might be wrong in approaching this as a generalist, but my point is not to minimize variation, rather to minimize distinction for the sake of anything other than clarity. There are a lot of people out there who would like to have us believe that a small difference is really a very big one, who would also have us believe that their way is the right and indeed the only way to do things, and of course I have concerns about this approach when it comes to spey casting, something I've made no secret of these past 3 years (of course that doesn't mean that I am right, either! . ) Maybe I should be getting a little more specific about some of these things, like the Thompson Switch.

Startin' to kinda like that name now that I think about it.

When it comes to the FFF Spey Certification I think it is unlikely that they will throw an oddball cast like the Thompson Switch at you and say perform it; I think it is entirely likely however that if you are asked about variations of the single spey and you mention figure-of-eight single spey, Grant Switch and Thompson Switch you better be prepared for an examiner to say "can you show me the Thompson Switch and explain with demonstration how it differs from the other two you mentioned?"

Of course, maybe with the Thompson Switch you could just fake it and the examiner wouldn't know unless it was me! :chuckle:

 

[flysoup]

switch casting

Dana,
One of the West coast Masters gave me the tip that you.
"Apply no power before midnight." when making a Switch Cast. Yet I find that you are starting at "one o'clock" This would tend to make the rod load with the "D" flowing up some what. If I am looking at it right. Where if you wait till the rod is Vertical you would gain by having the "D" loop behind the rod, So to say.
Or am I just confused with a roll cast?
ol' Al

 

[Dana]

Hi Al!

Are you referring to the power application on the back cast (D loop formation) or the forward cast (delivery cast)?

 

[flysoup]

switch casting

Dana
On the Forward cast after forming the "D" loop.

 

[juro]

Dana -

Your post on variation and examination illuminates a very good point about the benefits of certification I didn't see before - it will provide a common framework for people to study for the testing process and thus provide a sense of standardization of cast types / names.

This makes your involvement in this test all the more important dude!

 

[Dana]

still a little fuzzy

I'm still a little fuzzy, Al. Is the cast you are describing made with a slow rearward draw of the rod tip until the line comes to a stop and is hanging loosely off the rod tip slightly behind the caster (roll cast), or are you describing a cast with an acceleration into the D loop formation, forming a large D loop that is moving backwards away from the caster (D loop of switch cast/spey cast)? Maybe Juro could create two different diagrams for us which might help us to clarify what we are talking about here...

 

[flysoup]

Switch casting

Howdy Dana
When I form my "D" loop after I have set my anchor I make a soft backcast with the tip of my rod rasing and start my forward cast. I do not apply the power until my rod is vertical or "Midnight" then a short Speed up and stop will launch my forward cast.
The anchor is what keeps the line in a Loop and not a back cast the D forms higher and will let the rod load as it goes forward. I am using a Slow to medium action rod. With two hands
the drive comes from the top hand going forward and the bottom hand "going to my heart".
does this help any?
ol al

 

[Dana]

yes, it does Al--this sounds like a roll cast. If you were making a distance roll cast you would lift the line off the water, execute a sidearm backcast that creates a live line D loop that is travelling back and up away from you. When the leader touches down beside you, you execute the forward cast. You might even put a little haul in there. This "distance roll cast" or "live line roll cast" made with a single hand rod is what we call a switch cast with a double hand rod. The forward stroke is the same though as you are descibing--from the rear stopping postion the caster applies smooth acceleration into the abrupt stop that unloads the rod and forms the outbound loop.

 

[flysoup]

switch casting

Howdy Dana
Sounds like we are saying the same thing. It differs in the haul with the line hand on a single hand rod to; the double hand rod using the lower hand to Speed up the rod tip.
I will agree with the Anchor being the other difference. The 'Over head roll cast' would not have the anchor set but use the slow or stopped line in the water to "Load the Forward Traveling Loop"
This is why we need standardIzation.
Thanks for forming this fourm and inviteing me to join.

 

[juro]

Here is an old flash movie I had stashed away - I think it helps explain what Dana is saying in terms of the differences between the timing of a roll cast and a spey cast. The formation of the d-loop precedes the creation of the anchor rather than follows it as I think you said in your post.

http://flyfishingforum.com/expertise/spey/singlespey.swf

[1]FYI - This was pure luck if it even applies, it takes me a l-o-n-g time to put one of these together at my current level of expertise with animations of this type.[/1]

 

[flysoup]

switch casting

Howdy Juro,
That is neat and it does show the line travleing and then touching down for the anchor, very Well.
Not a switch cast but is does show the diffferance.
I will go and try it and be back in a little bit. Thanks
ol Al

 

[flysoup]

switch casting

Dana and juro,
I went to the tank and did a little trying.
I can see the big differance is in the timing of the back cast.
Lifting all the line and then making half of it go behind me before the fly anchors, then forward shot.
Timing timing timing. I have to work on my timing.
Oh the wind was right in my face at 10 to 15 mph. Did not make it easy. but I think I have the idea.
THANKS


ol Al

 

[Bob Pauli]

Juro-

Many, many thanks for taking the time to provide this animation. It greatly increases my understanding of the single spey. If a picture is worth a thousand words, this animation is worth a bunch more!

 

[Dana]

awesome!

you bin holdin' out on us Juro! What a great animation! Do more!

 

[JErwin]

Tank Casting

Al-
I'm glad to see that there is someone else on this board who has to practice his spey casting in a tank besides me. Nothing catches bream like a steelhead fly. Good luck,

JE

 

[flysoup]

Yea.
You have to be a Texan to do the pasture casting and know how big a "tank" is.
Thanks for the bump
ol Flysoup