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chrome-magnon man
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5,375 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
yet another new clip up on the speypages

this is yours truly underhand casting a long belly line (this is taken from a snake roll cast).

now with three approaches to the underhand cast (Henrik, Goran, me) up for your viewing pleasure I hope I haven't simply confused things!:eyecrazy:

Season's Greetings everyone!
 

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267 Posts
Casting

I checked out the videos of the many different casts that you have up and was quite impressed. I do have a question though. It appears to the untrained eye that there is not much difference between the "single spey", "switch cast" and the "underhand". These appear to be very similar in overall appearance and execution? I am sure that I am over simplifying this but what exactly are the differences here?
 

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chrome-magnon man
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Discussion Starter #3
Switch casting does not involve a directional change (unless we are talking about the Grant Switch--developed by Alexander Grant--which is a very efficient and powerful variation of the single spey); the single spey can be looked upon as a switch cast with a change of direction (say 45°); the underhand cast is a style of two-handed flyrod casting that involves a change in technique so that the bottom hand does more of or most of the work of the cast (as opposed to the top hand or both hands in traditional or "modern traditional" speycasting). The underhand cast shown on the speypages is from the single spey side, but you can do one that looks like a double spey, a snake roll, etc--I cover all of this in detail in my speypages newsletter series on the underhand cast, plus there is some info on it here. Tackle is an important component of classic underhand casting (shooting heads, fast action rods), but I have adapted the underhand style so that I can use it with long belly and extended belly lines and slower rods too (I don't claim to be original here--many of the noted Skagit casters use the underhand style or a variation of it including John Farrar, Dec Hogan and Ed Ward). The key to the method is how the hands or arms are used to move the rod around, especially on the forward cast.

A good way to distinguish between the underhand style and "modern traditional" speycasting is to look at Steve Choate here paying close attention to the extension of his upper arm and how "flat" the rod ends up at the end of his casting stroke, then have a look at what I'm doing here or here and notice the hand/arm positioning at the end of the casting stroke, and also the more "up and down" movement of both hands as I make the cast. In Steve's method the top hand comes down a bit but the main movement of the top hand is to drive the rod butt forward, then the bottom hand pulls the butt in at the end of the stroke; with the underhand cast the bottom hand pulls the rod butt down then in, with the top hand assisting. In the "Steve" video we see a switch cast (no directional change); in the "Dana" video we are seeing the end of a snake roll (90° directional change) but if I was switch casting in the underhand style I'd still be coming forward in the same fashion.

Keep in mind here that both Steve and I are casting extended belly lines in these clips and so I've modified the underhand style to allow for the added line length and additional movement of the rod necessary to cast a longer line; more "pure" underhand casting using shooting heads and smaller, more compact movements can be seen here and here, but it is interesting to note that video I've seen of the Syrstad brothers (underhand casters from Norway I believe) indicates that I have a similar style to theirs even though they are using shorter heads than what I was using in the closeups.

Does this help?
 

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Thanks

That is one of the better explanations that I have heard and it helped tremendously. The videos along with the description make it a lot easier to differentiate between the casts. Now to actually try this and not end up with hurting anyone? That will be the key. Thanks again for the info. Keep up the good work!
 

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Member FRSCA
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2,264 Posts
West MI

Right now I am doing the holiday thing, crisscrossing the state, to hang out w/ the family. The technique right now is indicator fishing, temp is hovering between 33-36F, long sticks work great for this, but 13ft of icy guides is no fun. The few times that I can get out, between ice flows, I am working the 1 hander. I haven't stuck a fish since 12/14, and am, jonzin' BAD for a tug on my stick. Going to work an Eastside trib hole tomorrow.

As for the casting,,,,, when I watch those videos,, I truely see that I am completely learning to cast all over again., and have ALOT to learn.

Jamey
 

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Speyngineer
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167 Posts
Thanks for the great videos Dana.

They are truly helpful in figuring out what one should be doing to improve as a speycaster.

When I studied the videos and your descriptions of the different styles and techniques, one question started to bother me. Obviously you consider the forward cast part of the spey cast (or casts) to be important in a good cast, as much of the great videos concentrate on that phase. In my personal experience, putting the D-loop into the right position and shape is a key to a successful speycasting, and once that is done correctly, with good timing, the rest of the cast, the forward cast, can be done with little effort. Then the proportions in the use of the upper or lower hand would not make that much difference. So how would you weigh the importance of the d-loop against the forward cast? Is it 50-50 (or 60-50 as we say in Finland :D).

Obviously the job can be done many ways, as your videos show. As you mention, the use of the hands is also related to the length of the line. One could assume that the long line requires longer acceleration time, which cannot be achieved with a short pull of the lower hand. Watching Nobuos classic style the acceleration is definitely longer, and one can see almost the Maxwells power push in the end of the forward cast.

Would you have the information for the videos, as which rod and line was used in each cast? Also the length of the line outside the rod tip would be of great interest. I know that I am asking quite a lot, and that info may not be available, but it surely would be helpful in understanding the differences in the casts.

WBR, Lohi
 

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chrome-magnon man
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5,375 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
D Loops n' other stuff

Hi Lohi!

The single hand casters have a saying: "a good back cast equals a good forward cast" and I believe the same applies to speycasting, whether with long belly lines or shooting heads. It is interesting to me that you would raise this point as I spent a few hours today going over digital video tape trying to find some good, clear images of D loops so that I could highlight the exact point you make, but I could not find anything I liked so I will have to go out again and get some. I have some good stuff on VHS but when I transfer it to dv and then compress to mpeg it loses clarity and the line becomes very difficult to see. I like the "60/50" rule that you have, and would agree that a well constructed and well placed D loop makes the forward stroke or delivery cast effortless or nearly effortless. As Mel Krieger likes to say, "the D loop is the essence of speycasting!"

For the videos, the following rod and line combinations were used, leader length not included in line length beyond rod tip:

Dana's Stuff: Loop 10150-4 Yellow, Loop Spey line (this was the combination for any of the casts made with the yellow [email protected] outside rod tip); Loop 10150-4 Blue, RIO GrandSpey 8/9 ("Timing" [email protected] 85ft outside rod tip); Loop 10150-4 Blue, customized Scientific Anglers 8/9 XLT (closeup strobed underhand casting [email protected] - 90ft outside rod tip); CND Thompson Specialist, customized RIO GrandSpey ("Timing2" and "Timing3"[email protected] 85ft - 90ft outside rod tip)

Nobuo's Stuff: CND Salmo Salar Specialist, Wulff Triangle Taper Spey 9/10 (I [email protected] - 80ft outside rod tip) or possibly a RIO GrandSpey 7/8

Goran's Stuff: Loop yellow 8124-4 and Adapted 8/9 Floating head (all outside rod tip @35ft)) with Adapted Running line
 

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Speyngineer
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167 Posts
Thank you Dana!

Great info about the lines and rods.

I wish that I could get somebody to video my casting, not to show it here, unless you need bad examples, but to pick up all the errors and concentrate on them. It would help to know what you are doing wrong. We don´t have spey casting instructors here, and only some underhand casting instruction with short belly lines is available. Therefore these videos and info from your site and this board has special value to me.

Lohi
 

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chrome-magnon man
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5,375 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
you're welcome!

glad you find them useful!

BTW, in Finland do they call two hand casting spey casting, underhand casting, two hand casting, or? Reason I ask is because I see that the Systad brothers from Norway call underhand casting "modern speycasting" while my friends in Sweden differentiate between spey and underhand casting, and over here in North America generally everything is speycasting. Reason I am curious is that understanding the various approaches to the two-hander has become something of a passion and one of the reasons I started this site and it is interesting to me to learn from my fellow anglers and casters. Are there any videos produced by casting instructors from Finland? Or, what videos are available to you?
 

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Speyngineer
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167 Posts
Two handed casting

Basically all the casts are called with their own names, whether performed with single or double handed rods. So when I said speycasting, I meant Single Spey, Double Spey, Snake Roll etc. Overhead casting with 2-hander is still called overhead cast.

The underhand casting is a little bit tricky, as a debate about it being nothing but a shootinghead spey is going on also here. But generally, we call it Andersson´s Underhand Cast (AUC). But that is the specific cast, overhead cast with short shooting head and lower hand power application is still called overhead casting. So we would differentiate the Single Spey Cast from the AUC, although the difference is not very clear :eyecrazy:

I am not aware of any finnish produced (spey) casting videos, so most probably there aren't any. Also the casting instructors can be counted with five fingers. So we use the internationally available videos, such as the Rio´s, from where I e.g. learned the Snake Roll. Funnily I have never seen anybody cast a Snake Roll in live except myself. If I understood correctly, Nobuo is making a Speycasting DVD, hopefully that will be also available in this remote part of europe.

About the only casting instruction available here is the Team Loop Finlands course, where to my understanding the AUC is mainly being taught.

Lohi
 
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