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I am not sure of dates but Ian Gordon won the Musto the year before Steve Choate, he was using a 16ft rod as the rod length increased the belly length had to increase as well.
I seem to remember that Michael Evans had a specially designed spey casting line out before anyone else.

Way back in the sixties the Ness Anglers were cutting and splicing lines to produce long bellied lines that the could cast further. For your information, as you were not into Spey casting then, in those days most commercial available lines were only 30yds long and double tapers, so it was very common to see the Ness casters with 2 lines spliced together. Of course unlike the PNW we did not make a song and dance about cutting and splicing.
 

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Way,

The point you made about the spey community not wholeheartedly embracing the spey line standards really doesn't surprise me at all. The same thing happened with the AFTMA single-hand standards. I remember very well back in the mid '60's and even into the mid and late '70's fly fishermen complaining about the AFTMA standard, and they were adopted in the '50's. Yet 20 years later many fly fishermen (including some very good casters with years of experience) complained about the AFTMA standard not providing them with enough information.

Therefore, I expected the same thing to occur in the spey world upon the adoption of a spey line standard that encompassed each of the common belly lengths. And that is exactly what is happening. Just like in the single-hand world experienced complaining and supposed confusion over the standard, despite the obvious advantages of the AFTMA standard for all involved from the line makers, rods makers, reel makers, and fly casters/fishermen, the exact same thing is happening in the spey world. This is why I've spoken about how the AFTMA standard was not a smooth transition.

Then add in CCS (I was glad to see you mention this) and how it relates to rod design, the feel of the rod when casting, and the grain window a rod is capable of casing effectively, it is easy to see why the standard for lines was needed and also why a standard for rod designers to have a way to have a simple way to quantify at least some aspects of rod action. For in my opinion, much of the current confusion on rod action I see relates specifically to the extremely imprecise rod action terminolgy of slow-medium-fast that is now used.

The rods I like in both single-hand and 2-hand would score on the top end of the CCS for a given line weight simply because I like fast recovering, stiff, progressive rods with a somewhat linear flex profile, and the slow-medium-fast action terminology doesn't even come close to qualitifying this. I see many people posting how the old Sage brownie 9140-4 is a "moderate action", when it is one of the slowest rods out there. Likewise I see the T&T's I like referred to as super fast, when it is simply fast. You have other folks describing rods as moderate, progressive action or medium-fast, progressives with fast recovery. This does nothing but confuse folks, and why I think the CCS would be of value.

For example, I've had folks cast my Loomis 13' 8/9 GLX with the 8/9 wt mid-bellies I like on the rod complain about not being able to "feel the rod load", while I find it easy to feel it load. Or the folks who are using 9/10/11 Windcutters on their Sage 9140-4's because they love the way the rod bends with the line, while I would use a 7/8/9 Windcutter on that rod, and even then still find it too slow and soft. If there were CCS data on these rods, the Sage 9140-4 might very well come out with a CCS number of 7.8 and the Loomis GLX 13' 8/9 with a CCS number of 10.8. If the CCS numbers were available for all rods and blanks, it would be much easier for someone to decide if he would like the rod.

In my two examples, a person who likes a slower, more flexible rod would probably be very happy with the Sage 9140-4 (and a CCS number of 7.8 for rod rated a 9 wt would show this), and someone who likes faster, stiffer rods would probably like the Loomis GLX 13' 8/9 because the CCS number of 10.8 on a rod rated for a 9 is indicative of a faster, stiffer rod. Thus, the CCS data would help a person more easily select a rod with the action he likes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
The Window of Grains

I feel out my league yet honoured to be among the greats.What is the grain window for a given rod?I think rod length,wieght of the rod,and the action plus the type of line,(short,mid,and long belly) would dictate the window grain(?).Does anybody know what the specs are going to be for a given line wieght?From what I've gathered so far is that the standards are going to be applied to the three types of line(short,mid,and long belly).Also I was wondering who set these standards?Was it the AFTMA,the line companies with or without the rod companies,or the Jedi casters,or the combination of all the previous mentioned?I've sure have learned a lot in the last week since joining this forum.I was somewhat stagnet over the last few years in the single handed world.Not get me wrong I always learn something every time I go out and believe there is always room for improvement but I think this is a natural advancement in sport fishing and is fundemental in mans nature to seek knowledge,experiment, and explore.Spey Galaxy I think is an appropriate term.What's next?
 

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Amazing how Willie's suggestion works

Willie Gunn said:
In the ice age when the Scottish people cast lines for salmon,this was in the days before the Americans invented Speycasing you understand, we used to use double taper lines, if you had too many grains out you just pulled in some line.

Think about things if the line is too heavy pull in a yard or two then bang it out, if too light increase the line speed to add more mass.

It is not really rocket science.
It is amazing how Willie's suggestion works with the two handed rods from Rio's New Outbound lines to the Mid Spey to the Grand Spey to the Cannon Jet Stream and even the new Skagit lines that Willie "loves" :saevilw: so much.

I'm recovering from a torn right Bicep. When my right arm is the high hand or dominant arm/hand for me, I have to pull in a couple of yards of line at the first of the day and again at the end of the day. That requires less effort and the timing is easier for me.
 
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