Spey Pages banner

1 - 20 of 45 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've heard the flyline industry is going to standard line wieght in grains next year.Is this true and what are going to be the specs and the ranges of grain wieghts for a given line wieght?I'm new to the Spey galaxy and I've had a hard time getting info on linewieghts in grains but even more of a tougher time to get the recommended wieght in grains for the two rods I have.I think the rod companies should list the range intended for the rod.I've been doing a lot of research and some Spey lines of the identical wieght have a difference of 300 grains.That's huge and trying to match a line to a rod could be a fortune and not to mention frustrating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
Check out the old threads

Cannon,
do a search and you'll find some good threads on the new standards. A window for each rod could be tough as it depends on the belly length you are fishing. You can do a search on your specific rod and find out what others are fishing on it. RIOs great recommendation are a good place to start. As you're learning you may prefer the B rating. I fished the B ratings for my first three years and now I like the A ratings better. Most new spey lines won't be too far off RIOs but again you can find most of the dirt here on the site through searches.
Dan
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
I don't believe the new standards are going to make anything that much easier when trying to match rods, lines, stature, personal preference, and casting ability. Spey casters want to know the head lengths and the grain weights for same. The simple solution is for the line companies to follow Rio and Snowbee's lead and label the line boxes with the specs and for the rod companies to follow Snowbee's leads and label the rods in like manner.
This simple solution could be implemented in a very short time and I believe would go along ways to solving the mystery for some of matching rods and lines. The spey consumers should be demanding this change from the manufacturers.
As StampSteelie says Rio's/Simon's line recs will get you started with a good match for head lengths and weights. If you want another brand line it's a simple matter to use Peter's line chart to cross reference to another brand.
You can find Peter's Line Chart and the specs for the following lines Airflo, Carron, Hardy, Rio, Royal Wulff, Scientific Angler's, and Snowbee, here:http://www.redshedflyshop.com/shop-index.html
You will also find a lot of line info here: http://www.flyfishusa.com/lines/splines_home.html
http://www.speyshop.com/
 

·
#&%*@^# Caster
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
Hmm I think the new line standarads are not that bad. I know the new rio grandspeys all work on every rod I tried them as do the skagit lines and those lines are some of the bigger outliers in the spey world as far as grain weight. Putting grains weights on the rods really is not going to help either due to big variation in grain weights for the long bellies and short lines.

I think RIO should keep doing what they are doing , SA and Airflo and going along the same path, and if the rod companies find that thier rods are not casting the lines weights according to the new standards then they need to relabel the rod weight designation. Seems pretty simple to me. To do a grain window right you need to break it up by belly length and that would be a lot of writing to fit on a spey rod butt :Eyecrazy:

Snowbee has done a good job with the lines but the 1-3D lines only vary by 20' so it is easier to stay at the grain mark they set. I know the scando lines they have are way too heavy IMHO for the given rod rating , most everyone agrees, so even that method is not perfect.

-sean
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
I don't think the line standards are a bad thing per se. I just don't think they will solve the problem of matching rods and lines for a given spey consumer.

The problem I've been hearing about loud and clear is that a person wants to be able to walk into any shop selling spey tackle and buy a rod plus a spey line of any length and go to the river and cast like a "jedi master". I don't believe this will ever happen however a lot of the people I talk seem to think the "new" spey line standards will solve this problem.

I believe the only way a spey consumer will ever be able to have a sure fit is to take it to the river for a test drive. To me it doesn't matter what the numbers say if it "works for you". No matter how much things are standardized there will always be the short lines (heads), the long bellies,
personal preception, stature, casting ability, and finances to add the X factor.
The last sentence in Sean's last paragraph is a perfect example of what I'm talking about as I know of people that think those lines are matched perfect for the rating and cast like a dream.

My problem with some of the line companies is that they don't seem to want to be forthcoming with the info I believe the spey consumer needs to get a good fit. That is the head length and the grain weight of same. When I ask for these numbers from some of the line companies I'm given the weights for 30' and 34' based on the "new" line standards, which tell me nothing I need to know. I have even been told the spey consumer shouldn't have that info and just trust the manufacturers to sell them the right product. This is nonsense and this thinking is where a lot of the consumer's confusion (and frustation) comes from.

In my opinion Rio is the most progressive line manfacturer out there. To me "they get it". I believe Snowbee also is headed in the right direction. I don't think all the belly info needs to be printed on the rod butt, but it could be printed on a brochure included with the rod. The paperwork already is included with most rods. Instead of talking about how great this product is give the consumer some real info they can actually use.

I know very little about spey line/rod design, nor do I really want to, however if I know the optimal head weight for the rod and the head length and grain weights for the line I believe I can get in the ballpark before a "test drive".
I have been casting Snowbee rods all summer and their system seems to work, at least for me. I do not think the system is perfect but it is a great step in the right direction. At this point everyone else is playing catchup behind Rio and Snowbee. Some rod/line manufacturers are moving forward while some are mired in smoke and mirrors.

Peace and Love from the left bank.
 

·
#&%*@^# Caster
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
The problem I've been hearing about loud and clear is that a person wants to be able to walk into any shop selling spey tackle and buy a rod plus a spey line of any length and go to the river and cast like a "jedi master". I don't believe this will ever happen however a lot of the people I talk seem to think the "new" spey line standards will solve this problem.
Well those folks are not good casters (I have another word but this is a family program) and will most likely never become good casters. It takes work and not some magic line, rod or standard.

Well it seems you want companies to somehow judge what the consumer wants based on feel. Everbodies feels different. Even with single hand lines you need to overline and underline so it is the shops job to get you to the right line.

With the spey standards an airflo 7 delta will work close the same as a 7 windcutter or a 7 sa short head on a given rod. That makes it easier on the shops and others to reccomend lines for some to try. Of course that is only a starting point and shops like yours are great because users should always try before they buy. Seems to make sense to me.For the major line manafacturers all the head length and grain weights are readily available. Hopefully in the next year or two we will see them all adhere to the new standards.

-sean
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
To add a little to what Sean has said, I offer the following thoughts on where I think the problem lies all too often with newbiew to spey casting.

When someone who has never fly fished before asks an experienced fly fisher or walks into a fly shop and asks the folks working in the shop to help him get started fly fishing, the first things the shop or experienced fly fisher asked are: What fish is going to be fished for? and What size water is going to be fished? After this infor is provided by the newcomer, we make our recommendation of rod length and line wt. However, I don't know anyone who would recommend a person that is new to fly fishing buy a "steelhead/salmon taper", or any other of the WF single-hand lines with belly/backtapers of 50'+ because we know such a line would end up frustrating the new caster. Instead, we recommend the newcomer get a WF floating line to match the rod's line rating.

The same ought to be applied to newcomers to spey. The long-belly spey lines with their 75'-100' bellies are analogous to the steelhead/salmon or distance tapers with their 50-65' bellies of the single-hand world and as such, they should never be recommended to a newcomer anymore than a steelhead/salmon taper is recommended to a new single-hand fly fisher.

Likewise, we wouldn't recommend a shooting head/taper to a newcomer to single-hand fly fishing because it is a specialized line that comes into its own in the hands of experienced and good fly casters. Therefore, since a single-hand shooting head is analogous to the Skagit and Scando lines, they would not be the best recommendation for a new, inexperienced spey caster.

Since we would recommend a WF single-hand line with its 30' belly to a new single-hand fly caster. Since the short-belly spey lines are analogous to the standard 30' belly WF single-hand line, a logical recommendation for a newcomer to spey casting is one of the short-belly spey lines with their 48'-55' bellies in the appropriate size for the rod's line rating.

And because one of the slightly longer belly WF single-hand lines line the Wulff Triangle Taper with its 38'-40' belly or the RIO Windcutter single-hand line with its 42' or so belly is not so much longer than the standard 30' belly WF line, one of them could also be used by a new fly caster with only a modicum of extra difficulty compared to the standard 30' WF single-hand line. Thererfore, a newcomer to spey could also be expected to learn how to spey cast with an appropriately sized mid-belly with its 65' belly spey line.

As can be seen by the above, I view the spey line standards as a good thing, just like the AFTMA single-hand line standards have been a good thing for the last 50 years in the single-hand fly world. As most or all of the line manufacturers produce lines conforming to the spey line standard that was adopted last fall, consumers will be able to buy any spey line of the same belly length with confidence that it will work on his rod. And as rod manufacturers begin getting 2-hand rods in the pipeline rated according to the spey line standard, a consumer will be able to know any rod rated for a 9 spey line will work with the same lines regardless of line manufacturer, just like it has worked in the songle-hand world for 40 years.

Right now we are in a transition phase of having the spey standard implememented, just like happened with single-hand rods. However, because of modern technology like the internet, this will happen much more quickly than the roughly 10 years it took from the late-50's when the AFTMA standards were adopted to the late-60's when virtually every rod maker and line maker were using them in the single-hand world. Does this mean there is a need for some experimentation to find out what new spey standard line wt works with a given rod? Of course, but just like with the single-hand world and its adopting the AFTMA single-hand line standards, experienced spey casters will have been experimenting to find out what spey lines work best with their favorite rods that were produced prior to rods being rated according to the spey line standard. Thus, shop owners, shop imployees, casting instrutors, and experienced spey casters will be able to provide the new or casual/occasional spey caster with the proper advise as to line size for his rod.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Manufacturing Standards

I here you and believe manufacturers could do a better job. I think a fair example of the problem is the old RIO Grand Speys which are roughly under-rated by two weight increments. Also agree that with the variables involved it is a bit naieve to assume you can by an 8/9 rod, an 8/9 line and you'll be dialed forever. It simply seems to me that if the line head weights are published and ditto the recommend weight zone, ( in the same medium ), on the rods, a consumer's opportunity to match up well has increased. Admittedly, the aces on this site have unraveled most, if not all, the mysteries. Still, I don't think we should have to wait for months of consumer testing to find out what the real rates are / should be. - - - - and then there's the thrill of the mystery itself ! ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
886 Posts
It is anglers expectactions that are at fault.

10 years ago the good casters could cast 25 yards now beginers are buying lines with 75 ft hads and expecting to lift and cast them. Yeah right.

Grand Speys Xlts only the top 5% casters can use these lines 75 ft heads 10% more the rest of the population should stick with shorter heads till they become profeicient
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
For the major line manafacturers all the head length and grain weights are readily available.
This is not entierly true. The specs as we know them are available but several of the line companies have changed things around, some quite a bit to comply with the new line standards. Some of these new numbers are not readily available and some of these companies are not planning to make them available at least in any form that is of value to the shops or consumers.
 

·
#&%*@^# Caster
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
Well Mike do not be coy :)

Let us know who and maybe the combined voices of the speypages masses can help coerce some info out of these guys. It is worth a try and I agree we should have access to this info.

-sean
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
Well Mike do not be coy Let us know who and maybe the combined voices of the speypages masses can help coerce some info out of these guys. It is worth a try and I agree we should have access to this info.
I really don't need to name any names. Just go to your local fly shop that sells spey tackle and look at the line boxes. For any companies that don't have the info on the boxes look at their websites. If the info is not readily available there then it is my opinion that they don't have the best interest of the spey consumer at heart. They know the data before they ever roll a line so why is it so hard to have it available?

Well those folks are not good casters (I have another word but this is a family program) and will most likely never become good casters. It takes work and not some magic line, rod or standard.
Actually if you go back and read some of the old post you will find that some of the people complaining about the lack of speyline standards are pretty good casters.

Russ, While I agree with you in therory. It almost sounds like you think shop owners should make a prospective customer fill out a lengthly form to prove that they are qualified to buy whatever tackle they think they want. If I am ask my opinion about a customer's ability and the use of a certain line I will tell them what I think but if someone calls and says "I want a long belly" my credo is the customer is always right. I don't think there is a shop owner anywhere that feels differently.

As most or all of the line manufacturers produce lines conforming to the spey line standard that was adopted last fall, consumers will be able to buy any spey line of the same belly length with confidence that it will work on his rod. And as rod manufacturers begin getting 2-hand rods in the pipeline rated according to the spey line standard, a consumer will be able to know any rod rated for a 9 spey line will work with the same lines regardless of line manufacturer, just like it has worked in the songle-hand world for 40 years.
I believe the statment you make above is very optimistic. I also don't believe it will ever come to pass as you envision it because we are all different. The single hand line standards are all fine and good but anyone that thinks they have solved all the problems of matching rods to lines should spend some time reading Dan Blantons board.

I am not against these new standards. I just don't think they should be used in place of giving us the head lengths and grain weights.
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
Mike,

I agree that as far as the bottom line for a retailer, the customer is right. However, I also think that if a customer calls looking for a GrandSpey, SLT, or Carron Tournament line they will not be offended if the shop owner or employee asks this customer how much spey casting experience he has. Likewise, I don't think the customer would be offended if after this question he replies that he has been spey casting for 2 years, the shop owner or employee suggests that the long-belly line he was looking for is probably not the best choice, tells the customer why it isn't, and suggests the customer consider one of the mid-bellies instead.

If the customer is still sold on say an XLT is the "magic bullet" that will allow him to magically make 100' casts at will after being told why the mid-belly would be better, good customer services dictates the shop owner or employee sells the line to him. However, if the shop owner or employee never tried to find out how long the person has been spey casting (or the average distance the fellow is able to cast consitently), the poor customer will get the line because of being uninformed or misinformed, not be able to cast the darn thing since he lacks the technique to do so, and will end up being one more person going about knocking the long-belly line as being terrible or worthless.

If the shop has informed him that the XLT, etc. is not a good choice for someone with his limited spey experience and beginner-intermediate spey casting ability, the customer will, when he finds he can't cast the darn thing, not blame the line as he would if he were not informed.

I agee with Malcolm, the average spey caster is not able to cast the long-belly lines and is better off with lines that have bellies between 55'-65'. Just like the average single-hand caster is not able to cast the steelhead/salmon lines with a single backcast (like a good caster can do), so he is better off with a WF line that has a belly of 30'-40'.

By the way, I know you do this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
869 Posts
this is gitting off topic a little but, that's a tough one on the customer asking for something and being "steered" another way. i have personaly seen that blow up on the clerk with people that are much more than they seem and have an ego to go along with it.

the standards will be a good thing eventualy but there will be a learning curve and some people will surely disagree just like we still do now with single handers. i would be really suprised if any rod manufacturers will change the rating of any existing rod, merely by the fact that it would screw up their lineups. this will be done as new models come out, just like with single handers. customers will ALWAYS expect to walk into the shop and walk out a better caster with some new equipment and i wouldn't want it any other way. from behind the counter we will still have some figuring and testing to do to sell people matched outfits, but that is why they come to us in the first place. the transition will probably take the 10 years any way despite the increase in comunication. great discussion.
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
BF,

I'm very aware that the customer who is "full of himself" and ego driven will not be very receptive to any suggestion that a shorter belly length might be a better choice for him. That is why I used the term suggest since if you is not receptive after the suggestion, it is easy to leave it alone and sell him what he wants. A suggestion is neutral and only provides a bare modicum of info; thus, if he is not receptive to the suggestion, the shop owner or employee backs right off and he is able to keep his ego intact, get the long-belly line, and both of you get to keep a congenial shop-customer relationship.

Then when he goes out and can't cast the line, he will be able to come back to your shop and get a line he can cast without having to worry about losing face. And if he hasn't cut this line up that he can't cast, you can give him some credit on a line that he could cast by taking the other line back in trade. (provided it has not been damaged or cut-up).
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
Good post BF. If it takes 10 years it probably won't matter to me as by then I'll need felt soles on the feet of my walker. Hopefully if I'm lucky I'll still be leaning in the door of the Red Shed talking to my friends (that's all of you) about spey rods and chrome.

Russ, Just because someone hasn't passed driver's ed doesn't mean they don't want or wouldn't buy a Lotus or some other high powered car like the ones you like, if they can afford it.

I also agree with Malcom somewhat. I myself can't cast that Carron very good but I don't stop trying. That damned long belly is kinda like looking over the fence at the neighbor lady sunbathing topless. You know it is wrong but you just can't stop. :whoa:
 

·
Steelhead are cool!
Joined
·
572 Posts
MJC said:
I also agree with Malcom somewhat. I myself can't cast that Carron very good but I don't stop trying. That damned long belly is kinda like looking over the fence at the neighbor lady sunbathing topless. You know it is wrong but you just can't stop. :whoa:
But it is oh so good!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
As a newbie I don't expect the magic bullet as I well know it is the time put into casting and being on the water.I have done my research and know double-handed casting requires a lot practice and technique and of course patience.As far as line standards are concerned I think it would help narrow down the choices of lines for a particular rod and then I can fine tune from there,of course this includes the type of casting I would be using.I enjoy and seek knowledge on fly lines and thier specs and other fishers experiences using lines and I expected that I will be purchasing different lines for different conditions and probably end up with a few lines that don't work for me.As far as the rod companies are concerned about listing the optimum and/or range of grains for a given wieght and model I think can be nothing but a good thing.Here is the perfect example;a Spey rod I just purchased,a 12'6" 8/9wt.First I E-mailed the company for the recommended grains and got no answer,then I phoned and they couldn't answer,so then I compared similar rods and came up with 550 grains.I finally got a hold of a rep.,not before making 3 long distance calls over a week and he told me the rod was rated for 575 grains.Would 25 grains make a difference,that question I can't answer at this time(?).
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
Cannon,

I highly doubt you would notice a 25 grain difference when you in the 550 grain area.

Mike,

Yeah, but he would have fun in the Lotus or other high performance car, at least until he ran it off the road and into a tree. :eek:
 
1 - 20 of 45 Posts
Top