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hook sets

as i have stated before, i like short shank hooks with tube or shank style flies.i believe in hard hook sets done by striking low and toward the bank. i recently experimented with two different styles of short shanked hooks and a different tube system i always try to do some experimntation on a trip where i expect some numbers of fish.i was 27 for 40. i got at least a run well into my backng and /or a few good jumps. i was disapointed with that ratio. especially since i could trace almost all of the premature releases to poorly executed hook sets.in all cases i did not set hard enough and i had a spell where too much of the stroke was upward,rather than to the nearshore side. have to keep reminding myself that if i did not get some power on the set i need to hit them again if they run away from me, maybe 2-3 times.in the past , since going short shank i have averaged 80%.
besides the short shank and the hard set the other egually important attribute of my set up is having the hook facing up at the very end of a 3-4" fly. most of my fish are hooked in the top part of the mouth ,in the far side from me.,either on the outside or just inside in the roof of the mouth. if i am slow, i still have the hookup in the near side of the mouth as a possibility. beau
 
Hello Beau,
How do you get the point of your hook to ride up on a tube fly? The only way I can get it to do that is if I use lead eyes on the front of the tube with the eyes facing down and the hook going up. Otherwise the weight of the hook makes it ride down. This is especially true with the heavier Daichi hook versus the Tiemco 105.
Dave
 
Ditto

Agree with Kush and LA on this one. Those short shank tubefly hooks can be lighter wire without having the annoying tendency of straightening like the AJs because, as Kush mentioned, there isn't the long shank to provide the fish with leverage.

The short shank also makes it tougher for the fish to throw the hook - I've had to use forceps on a few where the hook just snugged right down with the shank parallel to the line of the fish's jaw.

Additionally, I like them in winter because I use brass tubes and lighter wire hooks. Even with the fly bouncing off the bottom, I get very few snags because the tube, not the hook point, is what's bouncing off the obstructions. And the lighter wire hooks definitely help getting a hookset with the softer subtler bite.

Tubeflies? That's all I carry!

DS
 
hi GB,
on my shank fly i tie on an owner ssw 1 with a loop knot whereby the loop wraps around the shank. then i hold it in an up position and pull the knot into the tube on the end of the shank.the leader supports the hook in that postion.I do use small lead eyes to offset the floatation of my feathers and to keep it from spinning.actually, i tried a new way of doing a small tube [large fly 2-4" but small tube ,sometime larger like a string leach on a tube with the hook in the back]where i dont use a another soft tube on the end. tie the same hook on a leader the same way and just thread the leader thru the tube and the knot to the loop snugs up against the back end of the tube. tie the loop as long as you want to match the length of the fly. you cant control where the hook will be positioned in terms of up or down but had 6 lands for 8. the 2 were; 1, dozing on the take and 2;one hang down fish where i did not hit again on the first run. still had them on for good portion of time.
beau
 
Kush,

I think you are right on about this being about two different things. Distance for distance sake is not fishing, and I'm sure that most, if not all of us, have ssen folks out on the river casting long when the fish holding water is only 60 or so feet away. They boom out cast after cast to the shallow or fast featureless water and then wonder why they get skunked outing after outing.

Casting practice is a vry good thing to learn how to cast well either long or short. On the water, one should cast to fish, as you so aptly stated, not to impress others who may be around with how far you can cast.
 
If long casts were necessary, I wouldn't catch much. However, once in a while I run into a situation where I wish I could cast further, so I continue to work on it... Unfortunately, I don't seem to be a quick study. Maybe my basic lack of athleticism is the problem. Sort of a disability. So, feel free to feel sorry for me and let me go through your run first!

I doubt distance is any sort of bar to a good hook set: arguably, the more line you have out, the more resistance it will create in the current, and the better your theoretical hook set.

Years ago, when I switched from a DT9 to a much thicker 9-10-11 Windcutter, I noticed an immediate improvement in my hooking ratio, because (I assumed) of increased water resistance.

Poul
 
Sink tip My contention would be that thoes fish that come off after a short fight would have come off anyway. Thoes grabs where nothing happens I believe (after this years experiences) would not hook up even with the sharpest hook in the world.
This years experiment is far from over but do far on the year I am 6 for 7. This year I am using only cheapo mustad hooks. the only fish I have lost so far was on a tiemco. My preliminary opinion so far is that the weight of the fish is what sets the hook and the sharpness of the hook or the amount of hookset is irrelevant. Every grab I have had this year has hooked up solid with these mustads in sizes from 1/0-8. all straight out of the box unsharpened and debarbed. Just my opinion
 
100' casts

Being one of those who "claims" to be able to throw a single hand rod in excess of 100', I can tell you some of the most common problems that hinder long casts. In the process I can tell you that it will make casting 70-80 very easy. The common errors are as follows.

You have to make a good back cast!!!! The foward cast takes care of itself.
1. Start with the line tight, and rod tip low. All slack must be removed before you can load the rod.
2. I assume you can double haul.
3. Long smooth acceleration to a stop. Dont "bang" it, that's a sure tailing loop on the back cast, and it's a done deal then.
4. Absorb the tip "dip" (forgive my terms) with a soft cusion of your palm. This keeps the tip/line headed in the correct direction in lieu of at the ground. It also helps deal with "nervous line".
5. Drift.......... this one is the real deal........If you don't know how to make a drift you need to learn. The drift and extended haul are what remove slack for the foward cast. A "drift" is the extension of the rod after the "stop". You can drift with an overhead spey rod just as easily. After the stop you extend your hands slightly and the rod goes more to the horizontal. A drift in the foward cast while false casting looks like pointing the rod at the target and extending the elbow.

If I made a stop motion MPEG video of someone making a 100' cast, with a cheap IM6, single hand rod, would any of you watch it? If so I'll make one this weekend.

John
 
Rob,

We may well be debating the unprovable here. I would certainly take the 6 for 7 average anyday. I do agree with you on summer fish and hooksets being not as important. For winter fish I am not convinced though.

First, I have had some scary soft cold water takes where there was no weight to the fish until I stung it with the hookset. I have to believe that some of these would simply be spit back out without a hookset and on some I would never even know a fish was there. I'm just glad that I don't know how many times this happens without me knowing it :rolleyes:

You are no doubt right that some fish would come free no matter what. I can almost tell you which fish will though before they do and those are fish that hit and run hot right off the bat. These are the fish that I never get a hookset on becasue I tend to wait until they stop before I lean hard into them. Of course I do this so as not to break them off but in waiting, I can almost be sure that I will only keep half on long enough to set the hook. Once I get to that stage, I believe my chances of bringing them to hand goes way up. Not science but it works for me.

I still tend to fish traditional long shanked, up-eyed hooks and I fully believe these are not as effective as short shanked hooks and tube flies. Agree also that the Bartleet 10/1 and AJ speys, while they make a beautiful fly, are not worth a damn for holding fish. I lost a very large winter run this past February after playing it, or it playing me, for near 20 minutes. When I was telling the story to one of the old time legends one morning over coffee, he asked what hook I was using. When I replied a 1/0 Bartleet 10/1 he leaned over and playfully slapped my face while telling me it served me right if that was what hook I was using. But they do tie such a pretty spey style fly :D

Duggan
 
I've caught fish on long cast and on short cast. If I can get the presentation I desire with a long cast I will go there first as it allows me to fish the fly slower. Additionally the slack in the line can grant the fish the time required to turn on the fly. I'll agree the slap n grab steelhead are the hardest to get t the beach.
 
Hi John: I dont think thequestion is "can you cast 100 ' ? " but rather how effective is a 100 'cast and how frequently do you need to cast 100' to catch your share of fish.
I suspect most of us certainly those who have like me been flyfishing for 70 plus years can cast 100 feet with either a single or double handed rod but do we really need to.
Most people casting 100 feet with a single hander are fishing shooting heads .You can cast 100 ' but you sure as hell cant mend line properly with a light running line.
The same applies with a double hander unless you happen to be fishing a 120' double taper,or a 90'long belly spey line.
So whats the point in casting 100 ' if you cant mend line. unless of course you are fishing still water.
 
I hope I am not coming across as saying my way is the right way and the only right way. I think a lot of it may also have to do with the way each one of us presents a fly and maybe enev how a certain strain or individual steelhead takes the fly. I tend to swing my flys with a fair amount of downstream belly. consequently I never feel the fish actually take. Usually there is just all of a sudden a fish on the end of my line. Like you say we are debating something that cannot be put into a scientific formula. All that really matters is that we each enjoy our own sport. and that we do it without an indicator :D
 
Hi There LA!!

You had me second guessing myself there for a second so I went back and read the post again. His question was pretty well "How do I cast 100 feet?" I'm not sure he's concerned about fishing it. I catch 99% of the fish I go after within 50 feet of my toes. Being able to cast at distance shows "general" line and rod control. I think most of us agree that casting has just about as much to do with fly fishing as does fly tying or rod building. You don't "have" to have that skill but it sure can add to the general experience if you can. We went inland striper fishing yesterday. The wind was howling and the stripers were pushing chad along a sand bar. the boil would rise anywhere from 50' to 200' away from us. Granted I was using a shooting head with amnesia line but having some casting skill certianly made the afternoon much more pleasurable for me.

John
 
Hi John I`m glad to hear that you too have Amnesia. Iv`e had it for so long that i dont remember when I started fishing.
I`ll be the first to agree that fishing wouldent be the same unless we engaged in all the skills associated with it. rod building ( I`ve lost count of the numbers I have built) fly tying and yes ;studying and trying to perfect all manner of casting skills , are all part of the total fishing experience. Fishing is more than a sport ;it`s a way of life.
 
LA,

I whole heartedly agree with you on the difference between casting 100+ fish and fishing the same cast effectively. On stillwater there is no problem with fishing 100+ effectively with a single hand rod and shootinghead, running water is a different story.

When I lived in Pennsylvania, I used to fish the Susquahanna areoun Berwick, Bloomsberg, Sunbury, and Harrisburg (all in Pennsylvania) along with the mainstem Deleware around Callicoon, NY, and these two rivers are rather large to say the least. I began using shooting heads back then (the 1970's) to be able to make casts over 100 feet with a single hand 6 weight. Great fun to cast that far, but fishing the fly effectively, unless it was a streamer that was retreived nearly from the moment of the cast landing, was an entirely different story.

On bass ponds or pickerel lakes, the long cast was wonderful becaue I could cover more water with a single cast and control it as well. This was on still water and it didn't take me too many years to realize that really long casts in the reivers mentioned above were not needed, even though they were great fun to make. The moving water made it difficult to control the fly unless it was one of those very rare runs or pools that were of nearly uniform current from bank to bank simply because the shooting line (I used Stren Gold 20# test) couldn't be mended.

And as been said, 2-handers are no different unless you are casting a long belly or double taper line in most runs on most rivers.

My father has never learned to cast beyond 45 feet or so and until I was in my twenties, he sonsistently caught more fish than I with my casts out yonder. I have learned that the length of the cast for effective fishing is totally dependent upon whether you can place yur fly and mend the line to get a good presentation. Otherewise, the cast is wasted adn all you are likely to get from a day fishing is excercise.
 
Benefits of the XTL

So it brings us back to one of the benefits of the XTL - it allows relatively long casts that can be effectivley controlled under certain water conditions. I can think of a number of steelhead runs that if you can cast 100 feet you could effectively control the fly. To have that skill is certainly a plus!
 
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