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Snap T, Snap C, Circle Spey or Circle Cast.

That is a mouth full. Everytime someone mentions this/these casts he/she usually lists two or more to discibe a single cast. As the largest group in the spey casting community (that i know of) I think the members of the SpeyPages should try to come up with a blanket term that the various styles of this cast could fall under.

The casts were born with the snap T so to pay homage to this yet get rid of the "t" which describes one of the styles I like Snap Casts but I would like to see what others think and maybe we can reach a consensus.

Greg
 

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I tend to agree, I've always reckoned it was just a cast for impressing the spectators.

I have always said if you can single and double spey cast of both shoulders that is all you need.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Put me in the single or snake roll camp, either hand up all things being equal.

However there are certainly times where the pulley action of a snap cast puts a little extra lift into a sunk tip without a roll-up cast and I will go to that instead of a roll-up + single spey; and with very short heads (Skagit/Scandi) sometimes a double is more comfortable than trying to curtail the spiral with such a small amount of line in the air.

But for mid-length or better, greased line with or without light tips it's a single or snake for me please.
 

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I think the snap T off either shoulder is probably the easiest cast to teach a beginner and get them fishing quickly. It is also one of the easiest casts to use when throwing heavy tips and flies as you rarely need to do anything but a nice slow lift to get it all up and fishing again. Easier than the double for accurate and consistant anchor placement and the two step method lets them slow down a bit and get things working so much easier than the single. Plus much easier for 90 degree casts than a single
 

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I am a firm believer that the snap T and the double are all that a person needs? I prefer these two since I am not a big fan of the single. Especially when talking about skagit casting with tips and large flies. I cant say why but I have never been a fan of the single.
 

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Rick J,your last point about easier to make a 90 degree cast with the snap vs the single struck a chord for me.I have noticed over time that single fans in general[this may be an overstatement]that I have watched cast,seem to cast well short of 90 degrees.I have always speculated that that is because it is easier to make a pretty cast at less change of direction.I fished behind a person making singles once that was making pretty singles.His fly was landing at close to 45 degrees.I was making ugly casts[singles,I was trying to emulate his style and taking advantage of the free lesson] at close to 90 degrees[not so ugly that they werent landing in a fishing immediately position].Net/net,I was hooking fish before my fly was at the angle where his fly was landing;well before,i.e.,60degrees or more!]He hooked none.So, if a snap makes it easier to achieve 70-90 degrees,I think that is important for "fishing " vs "casting".I tend to use singles when using a floating line. .One,it is easier.Two,I usualy want a less than 90 degree angle,especially if skating.Beau
 

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loco alto!
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I like "snap casts" as a general category.
 

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Snap Casts

I agree with Peter. The "Circle Cast" is different enough to warrant its own name. I don't snap the rod tip with this cast. I use it when I am having trouble getting the high density sink tips to come up. For me it requires a smoother pick up with a higher rod position, compared to a snap cast. In contrast, for me the snap cast is a rod tip that is much lower to the water and is an abbreviated casting stroke much like snapping a whip. The two as far as I am concerned aren't even close.

Henry
 

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Snap T/C, Circle Spey: What To Call It?

The 'Snap T,' the 'Snap C,' and the 'Circle Spey' are all very similar casts with some subtle differences. As a Spey casting instructor I would like to come up with a unifying name for this family of casts that does not confuse the hell out of a beginning Speycaster.

My choice, at the moment, is the 'Snap C.' I prefer the term 'Snap C' as it recognizes the original cast with the word 'Snap,' but more closely defines the path of the rod tip (a backwards 'C' from river left/a 'C' from river right) after the rod lifts the line from the water at the beginning of the cast.

The term 'Circle Cast' is less satisfactory from an instructional point of view: if the rod tip were to describe a true circle after the lift, the fly/leader will either run into the tip of the rod or consistent upstream anchor placement would be extremely difficult.

The term 'Snap C' works best for me: it pays homage to the first of the Snap casts, the 'Snap T,' and describes more closely what the tip of the rod is actually doing in the second phase of the cast after the initial lift.
 

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Snap T or whatever..

Some humble opinions:
1. While off the point of the thread, for some reason the quality of the Snap T cast came into play. From experience fishing steelhead on west coast of North America and sea-run browns in SA, folks doing Snap Ts almost never have to roll a sunk tip/fly to the top. A huge advantage. How many folks doing single speys with deeply sunk flies do not need to roll the line to the top in preparation for a cast?
2. Beau's observations about 90 degrees ring true.
3. Tophers' comments are bang on. To differentiate the C and the Circle from the T is to make a distinction without a meaningful difference.
4. Whomever invented the Snap T should be knighted.
 

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Peter,
You may not have a snap persay in your C spey but at least when I was taught I put much more of my energy in the downstream portion of the C than I do in the upstream portion. It is in that way that the C and the T are very similair.

Do you apply equal energy throughout the stroke ?

I for one find the C spey to be my most useful cast while fishing tips and deeply sunk flies.

Gillie
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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This is an interesting discussion and Greg makes a great point. Snap-C works for me Topher, but I will use whatever monniker that the student mentions first :)

As far as cast comparison, there are two ways to look at it IMHO - the angler's view and the instructors view.

From a fisherman's perspective, when a single spey will do the trick a snap seems an extra and unnecessary move to me. Likewise when a snake will achieve the task I can't see the point of all that wasted energy and white-mousing around with a double. Let's say that a snap or double takes approximately twice as long to execute as a single or snake. I don't think I would get too much argument there although it would be interesting to time the difference. The swing, given the same angle and distance, would be approximately the same. So one could argue that a single spey caster spends half the time casting that the snap caster does and a similar delta would apply to double vs. snake.

IMHO snaps & doubles have their place but do not take the place of the singles & snakes, nor is the inverse true either. They complement each other, not conflict with each other.

However - I don't agree that a single spey cast necessarily has a limited angle change, with practice 90 or even 180 degree single speys become no more difficult than a 45 degree change.

On a related note I think many guys cast too sharply across the water to fish effectively with a swung fly. Casting too directly across the current requires that the fly drift without tension for a period of time before the fly starts to actually 'fish'. Certainly not until the angle that a capable single spey caster could hit without much ado. Casting too far beyond the angle of good tension wastes additional time IMHO and often 'clotheslines' the pool. In sunk line fishing if the line does not get set parallel to the current it isn't going to sink properly, if it is not tensioned at a shallow enough angle to the current then the fly isn't really fishing well. Summer grease-lining is different story, the context is winter lines and fishing in this thread as I read it.

Don't get me wrong as I mentioned in my earlier post, there are times where a snap or double makes more sense and in fact work better than the single and/or snake - lifting a sunk line, a very short line on a downriver angle, etc. Not to mention the element of "feel good" as Spey is definitely a feel-good activity of ever there was one. For each his/her own, of course. The casts you like best are the casts you make best. I just don't agree with the argument made above that a single is angle-restricted, and a good lift technique lifts a surprising amount of sunk line.

All four are good casts, and worth learning for their best angling applications.


Teaching is a whole 'nuther topic and as a Spey instructor I've thought this one through quite a lot. We've also hashed this around here on the Speypages and it's a given that when the task is to put someone on the water with the chance of hooking a fish quickly casts like the double and snap should be considered as they might click for the individual you are working with. So should overhead casts, if your job is to "guide" them into fish quickly. In fact a snap to an overhead or a double to an overhead can make an angler quite happy and productive. So can a snake to an overhead for that matter.

But I would argue that the intent there is to facilitate casting for purposes of guiding, not teaching Spey casting per se. If the objective is to provide the best possible foundation for a lifetime pursuit of Spey casting rather than get someone on the water quickly then I would argue that it's far better to work with the true essentials within casts like the switch and incorporate changes of direction once the fundamentals are established firmly. Such an approach makes the snap and double a breeze to learn at the right point in the class. It depends on what your student wants, needs and deserves - and could be either.

Of the classes I've taught, both the 'crash course' and 'solid foundation' approaches have been appropriate at times. In either case it's best not to go into it thinking you know definitively what the student will respond to, but instead have a good program prepared for any circumstance and keep an open mind to find what the students respond to interactively.

One student will pick up the single spey quickly while finding the snap-c confusing, another might be quite the opposite. Bring the whole game plan and work to deliver the best product possible, which is invariably a two-way street with your student(s).

Great thread.
 

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Snap T/C, Circle Spey?

Peter,

Simon Gawesworth nicely sums up the controversy surrounding this family of casts in his magnificent book, "Spey Casting" (Chapter 12, p. 143 and p. 164). I teach the cast exactly as Simon describes and demonstrates the cast in his book (the guy who did the line drawings for Simon's book started this thread).

Here's the problem, a problem of which Simon is well aware: although Simon and many other Spey casting instructors call the cast the 'Snap T,' they actually TEACH the 'Snap C' or the 'Circle Spey' without referring to it as such. I think teaching the cast would be less confusing--it would certainly be more accurate--if we simply called it a 'Snap C' or a 'Circle Spey.' If you teach a 'Snap C' or a 'Circle Spey,' call it what it is.

Juro,

Which monniker do you use with a beginning student of Spey casting who is unfamiliar with the terms 'Snap T,' 'Snap C,' or 'Circle Spey,' and therefore does not use it first?
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Topher Browne said:
Juro,

Which monniker do you use with a beginning student of Spey casting who is unfamiliar with the terms 'Snap T,' 'Snap C,' or 'Circle Spey,' and therefore does not use it first?
Like I said bro, snap-C works for me... unless the student has a particular monniker in mind, in which case such technicalities as 'proper names' can wait until after the cast is completely established in his repertoire, or at least until a dram after class.
 

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Snap C

Juro,

When you refer to Snap in a casting stroke I get the impression of making an short, hard, downward casting motion with an abrupt stop, (that's how I do it). If this is so, then I assume the beginning of the cast has to be much more easier and smoother, in which the energy of the cast is building to an abrupt halt. I find when doing a Circle Cast, which probably should be called a Half Circle, that the energy spent in making this cast is used more on the lifting and getting the sunk tip to break the surface tention. I only then need to guide the line into an anchor postion just downstream from me without much effort on my part. This seems to me to be a complete different cast from any of the Snap Casts and deserves its own place, and not be catagorized as a Snap Cast.

Henry
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Peter,

I would say that most people do the cast just as you descibe. Not to many people still do a "t" version with line snap'n and line a dump'n as you say. The cast has smoothed out over the past dozen or so years into a rounder, softer cast. Is the snap T still a cast? Yes, but most folks are not doing the big snap, crackle, pop that we saw a lot 10 years ago.



The single spey has many styles within it's title, some are very different from other and some are subtle variations. Generally when we mention a situation and the cast we were doing we don't need to say anything other then we were doing a single. This is what I am talking about. We need a simple, recognizable term that all styles of the snaps fall into.

To say that the "c" or circle should be considered it's own cast and not a style of the snaps is not quite right. We wouldn't have a circle if it were not for the "T". The circle is a progression from the "T". Whether you move your rod up and down or round it out you can lay your fly in the same spot. The rod tracks a different path for 1/3 of the cast and we should give it it's own distinct name? I don't think so. A modern day automobile is a progression from the first cars made and light years apart but both are still cars. By comparison the difference between a "t" and a circle are small.

Quite a few folks have responded to the thread but only a few have voiced an opinion on an umbrella term for the cast. Come on guys let's put our heads together.

Thanks,

Greg
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Hi Henry -

Not at all the case, in fact quite the opposite. I guess that proves that the consolidation of several names which describe similar (or same) casts with variations in speed, circularity, and style is indeed a helpful pursuit!

I'd bet a practitioner cares little what a favorite cast is called, however Greg and Topher (both pro instructors) make a good point from a teacher's perspective - this particular cast seems as if it's about to grow a genus and species designation ;)

Per your question on my own use of snap Speys - I really don't have a singular snap style per se... when I am using a floating line I will play with forming the snap like a dribbling fountain, laying the leader as soft as a mayfly in my anchor point with a pointy little loop; or at other times I will make a Quixotic windmill circle with a type 8 15ft tip to haul a sasquatch fly up from a back-eddy with a full flex in the rod if that's what it takes.

As you know the essence of the cast is to create line momentum in one direction, then reverse beneath that vector creating a shearing loop. Given this basic principle nuances like straightness of the initial and secondary paths verses roundness, speed and length of setup strokes can all be varied as needed or as desired. The circularity or linearity can be varied considerably based on purpose.

I generally seek the lightest force and tightest gap that the line, rod and situation will let me get away with - but once again that could be a huge wagon wheel shape on a blustery February day, and a scissor stroke with a 6/7wt mid-belly later that season.

Folks often use several times more force than necessary when doing this cast. I think that's how it got the name 'snap' :lildevl:


Additional notes:

Placement of the anchor is certainly relative to the end postion of the rod, but final rod position is not the single operative element in placing the anchor IMHO. Where the end of the line goes depends on how much force is applied in the two opposing directions that make up this unique cast which consequently relates to rod position.

The intial upstream pull from dangle requires a little less energy than is required to move the far end of the line to the upstream anchor point. The secondary "tucK" of the line under that initial vector should be enough to move the line between the rod-tip and anchor halfway back downriver, folded on the water. On the way back down it helps pull the anchor up river - the tension from the back end helps the fly the rest of the way. Thus the end of the line can be placed based on how the "yank" (upriver) is countered by the "tuck" (underneath the yank). The rod is the instrument to achieve this but it's position is not the real key.

The yank is very influential in where the line ends up. If you yank with no tuck, the line will go all the way upstream. If you yank softly and tuck with a white-knuckled vengeance, most of the line will pile up because there is no opposing tension.

Once set (just as with the double) Simon's trick of pirouetting the fly is a winner. Sliding the leader just a bit as the forward cast begins also assures alignment.

Common problems include too much power in the yank/tuck/(snap!), over-rotation of the sweep, dipping of the rod during the sweep, cutting the corner (not sweeping around using centrifugal force but coming over the top), excessive upward force during the d-loop formation, and trunking the butt just to name a few.

Greg -

Sorry I didn't want to divert your question but since I had already typed the above reply during my lunch hour...

Obligatory on-topic reply:

How about two - circle-snap, and scissor-snap. :rolleyes:
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Hey Greg...

I'm trying to think of a snappy answer but this morning all my brain cells seem to have snapped, crackled, and popped of to somewhere else. For the time being, "Snap C" works for me. I really don't care what it is called, I use it more then anything else.
 
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