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Discussion Starter #1
Well, Here it goes. My first post! I have been spey fishing for about a year now and did attend Dana's spey class in BC this past Feb. That really helped me a lot. I was wondering if someone could give me some advice on the problem that I have been having with the Snap C cast. I am using a windcutter line with a 15' type 6 head. My problem is with the anchor point and firing target. Most of the time, I make my reverse C and my anchor point is placed somewhere upstream and then I fire a nice cast out, which makes me happy. Sometimes my line fires out and then crosses over itself. Yikes!!!! I am trying to set my target at 90 degree's out. I guess I'm not sure how to figure out where my target is in relation with my anchor point. I know if that my anchor point is close to me I fire at about 45 degrees to prevent this line cross. Am I on the right track here? Maybe someone can explain this to me.

Thanks
-Doug
 

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Doug,

Welcome. You appear to be on the right track with thinking about the relationship of the anchor point and your casting direction. Just thinking about the physics of the cast explains why you get the tailing loop. The trick of course is to get so comfortable with your line set-up that you can place the anchor in the correct position every time. With a wind-cutter that should be relatively easy as you are always casting with the same amount of line outside the tip (unlike with long-belly lines). The type 6 head will complicate things a bit, but you should be able to time it.

In my experience, especially when guys are first starting out, tailing loops as you describe can be a result of "over-hitting" the cast. Possibly as a result of not being comfortable with your technique you are compensating by putting way too much force into the forward cast - this will result in a tailing loop. I will find this happening when I'm casting an unfamiliar rod - especially a softer one until I get used tio it and slow down, or if I'm casting a line with a very short belly as I normally fish longer bellies which require a longer motion.

My sugestion is that you focus on a short crisp forward motion, try to get the bottom hand involved by pulling back with it as your top hand goes forward (the "Underhand cast"). I know that when I cast short bellies I'm always amazed at how little movement is actually required to launch the line. The bottom line - I think is get out there and practice! Good luck I hope this helps a bit.
 

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"Snap C?"

Doug/Kush: this is not a name for a cast that rings any bells with me. Can you describe how this works, or would I/we know it by another name.
tnx
Fred
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Kush, thanks for the info. I don't think I'm getting tailing loops. The loops seem to start to go out fine and then the line hits/crosses from the side, not the bottom. I think my application of power is fine. Yea, like you said, I don't have to apply lots of power. Its more like the rod/line direction problem. I have experimented today and if I throw my line just a bit more upstream, I don't seem to have the problem. Does it makes sense if you want to cast upstream to position your anchor point differently?

Fred, I just call this cast the snap C, I'm not sure ,its probably the snap T or circle spey. I lift the rod up at 45 degress and make a reverse C to move my line upstream. Sorry about the terminology.

-Doug
 

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Crazy names for Casts

Fred - ya, this one had me for a second too!

Lets see - it's usually either called the Snap T or Circle cast. But I think i like Snap C -sounds cooler! ;)

Doug - try to put the line/leader connection in line with the direction of your cast. Pick a target - either in the river or on the opposite shore that represents the direction you want to make your forward cast. When you make the "snap" or "C", try to land your line/leader connection directly between your rod and your target.

That being said, Kush is right . . practice is the most important thing. Experiment with the anchor point and you'll see why correct placement will really help your cast.

Good Luck!

DS
 

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With knod of acknowledgement to Dr. 'Spey Bubba" and Steve C.

THE major thing I got out of our clinic (other than I was clueless on how to do a lot of the basics .... even a 'blind pig' can find an Acorn thing' :rolleyes: ) is the cast has to be over the anchor. From that point, almost regardless of the cast, it's going to do/go where you 'aim.'

Way/Steve/Dana: if I'm off on this JUMP IN QUICK.:eek:
FE
 

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Doug D, another thought:

perhaps you are not casting in plane. What I mean by this is your drawback or backcast should be 180 degrees to your intended target. Make sure, as you sweep the rod around and raise it to the firing position that your last backward motion is in the exactopposite direction that you intend to present the fly. If not, your fly will cross the flyline mid-flight as would your single hand rig if you rolled your wrist out before coming straight over your head.I hope this helps!Brian
 

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Additional thoughts

These points have been made but I'll try to say things a bit differently. The anchor point needs to be above where you are casting - if you want to cast 90 degrees, when you make the snap and rotate so you are facing across stream, the anchor needs to land just above you.

A key point that Derek indicates in his video is that when you do the final switch cast (and as others have said) it needs to be 180 degrees opposite your target. What often happens is that if your anchor lands too far upstream or if you have too much stick, most of the line will end up 180 degrees as it should but the end will still be at 90 degrees or parallel to the river flow (I think it is Simon's bloodly L) - I would think this would be more prevalent with a sink tip. This bit of line will often cause the collision you describe. Try to watch the tip carefully when you make your cast and try to ensure that it all turns when you make the switch cast (roll cast)
 

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i watch my sinktip and leader on my backcast for the final stroke . assuming everything else is right, you need to wait on your forward stroke until the weight of the backcast pulls the L out of your sinktip and leader . i wait until it straightens and starts to pull the begining of the leader up from the water. then you are straight and you know you are fully loaded. if you have the L in your line it crears extra accelaeration in a different direction and flips the end of your line back downstream.
 

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a lot of us think we have the cast lined up in a stright line with our targeted entry point but dont have the last 2-4 ft lined up in a straight line. doesnt matter where your anchor is if you have an L in the last few feet. plus with a wf type of line your anchor is not going to vary much.
 

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Two thoughts on this one. First nomenclature, as I understand it, the Snap T and the Snap C are slightly different casts. The end result is the same (especially with a shorter bellied line) but they do differ.

The T (as taught to me several years ago by our own Doublespey) requires the firm snap down the line from the raised position. When I teach this I liken it to the wrist snap at the end of a golf or softball swing. Once you get the hang of snapping the rod tip back down and under the line, you have it.

The C or "pulley" sets up the same but instead of the snap, you draw a C. This action can best be envisioned as pulling on a pulley coming from over the top and then around and back under. This is much easier to get the hang of for beginners.

Both methods will put a downstream line above you and into the anchor position however the C is not as powerful an action so will not handle a long bellied line as well. The advantage it does have over the T is it forces you to get the rod tip lower and reduces the chance of line, leader and fly hitting the rod.

Finally, one cure for the original problem might be to concentrate on tilting the rod tip slightly more upstream on your forward delivery. Too much and you lose power, too little and you catch the line as it rolls out.

sinktip
 

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So Doug, you hoped for a little help - I hope this isn't more than you bargained for! However, this is the kind of thing you can expect as part of this board, a bunch of helpful people (sometimes we even know a thing or two)!

Seriously, I hope something here helps and I still think the most important thing you can do is get out there and practice. I don't mean go fishing - you will not be practicing - you will be fishing! As hard as it may be - don't put a fly on (just yarn will do), you could even make up a grass leader and practice on dry land. Get out there and fool around with some of the suggestions and figure it out for yourself - it sounds to me that you are basically on the right track anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks to everyone that has responded to my post. You all have given me a lot of different things to think about and try out. Since I am only 5 mins away from the American river, I went out and experimented yesterday evening. It seems by placing my anchor, just a bit further upstream and thinking about the 180 degree rule made a big difference. I had only a couple of line crosses. At this point I have experimented with all the basic casts and with long and short belly lines. So, I have decided to stick with the short belly lines and practice more to improve my over all consistency. I'm getting out as much as I can and I am trying to balance out the practicing vs fishing.

Thanks again,
Doug
 

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Would it work better in gale force winds...?

Hi Doug,

It's Ron from the same class...

I have the same thing happening on some of my casts when trying the "snap C". The "snap" throws the entire 65' belly, (Mid Spey), straight upstream, the sink tip starts plummeting to the bottom, and the current starts moving the whole thing towards you. I mostly solved this problem with a move that might resemble a "Perry's Poke, (I've never seen one, so I can't be sure). As soon as the line hits the water after the snap, I swing back and launch a very weak cast. This only keeps the line moving and taught, keeps the tip closer to the surface and also re-anchors the line in front of me and still upstream. The belly is now more in line with 90° across the river, and I immediately swing a forward spey cast across the river.

It's not the most graceful way to do things; I'm no where near putting sink tip, graceful, and good distance in one sentence yet...
:eyecrazy:


Best of luck,

Ron
 

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"ER" sounds like your fishing the Rogue for the Springers.

Same 'trick, ' tain't pretty, but it does the job when your chucking a 300 ro 400 grain head to go "deep and dirty.'
:devil:
fe
 

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Think Reverse "C"

Yo Eskimo,

The "Snap T" is a misnomer because it Does throw the entire belly of the line upstream of you, which leads to an inefficient cast.

I like the "Reverse C" designation (think of a ">" with the point rounded a bit). I you try to angle your rodtip downstream (throwing your line ~underneath~ the belly) instead of straight down to the water as in the Snap "T", you'll get less line upstream and more downstream with which to form a larger "D" loop and hopefully leading to a better cast.

It's pretty difficult to describe - the best advice is to watch (or better yet get the assistance of) someone proficient in this cast.

hasta,

DS
 
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