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chrome-magnon man
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Here are two versions of the same cast, known as the Snake Roll or the Spiral Roll, and sometimes the same name is used for both.

The difference between the two casts is that during the snake roll the initial movement of the rod is backwards towards the bank behind you (assuming a 90 degree change of direction) while the spiral begins with a vertical lift.

Which cast do you prefer?

snake roll

spiral roll
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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Peter did you watch the video? Dana is not doing a spiral single. They are both variations of what you are refering to as the snake. They are both downstream casts...

I use the second variation with a defined lift. I do this as it emphasizes the same lift you do in the majority of other casts and helps my casting be more consistent over a days fishing.

-sean
 

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For me, it's a case of clumsy ...

Even though I can cast right or left hand up for most applications ... the snake and the single sprl. have defeated me on this. :confused:

For 'river left' it's Steve's Toy all the way; for river right it's the snake. Try it the other way and I'm like a cub bear playing with himself.
 

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I think I pretty much use them interchangably. Probably I will use the spiral more with a lift for long lines and a snake roll with no lift for short lines. With tips I will be lifting but it is a continuous motion right into the spiral with no loss of tension on the rod or line
 

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For me I guess it depends on the application. For what its worth, for fishing tips my stroke is the snake. For floaters it is more the spiral. If I am fishing a long bellied floater though, as line length increases, I find myself going more to the snake.
 

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I read this post with great interest and watched Dana's two videos and feel we are splitting hairs.

I think the people who are trying to find the difference between these two casts are getting lost and are on the wrong track. The spiral roll is just another name for the snake roll. People are trying to find a difference in the two to make them separate casts, but this is not the case. In both cases you can start with a flat push back or a vertical lift according to the room behind and whether using a sinking tip and a big fly. Wind also would affect whether to lift first or go back flat. It doesn't matter what the cast is called, starting the rod in a different position is just a question of style.

It is like saying that there is the Double spey and there is the "Half hitch spey", just because the rod starts in a different place. It is all a question of style and necessity.

Don't confuse the spey world by trying to rename every variation of a cast - it's bad enough with the snap T/ snap C/ circle spey issue. Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. Let's not get anal about things.
 

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Ahh, Simon... the voice of reason ... at last. Thankyou.
 

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Thank you Dr Sanity, aka Spey Bro.

Discounting the overhand cast and the underhand, skagit types of casts, how many real casts are there? besides the basic three:

Single Spey
Double Spey
Snake Roll
 

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Hi All,

This is a very interesting thread.

When Spey casters are separated by an ocean strange things can happen. Cast evolve like the lemurs in Madagascar.

I've watched the video and the way Dana is making the spiral spey is different to the way I have seen it done in the UK.

In Dana's Spiral spey there is a Long initial straight lift followed by what looks like to me, a straighforward snake roll.

I would say (from a UK perspective) that both of these casts are snake rolls that start with the rod in a different position in regards to the dangle and one has a straight lift.

A Spiral spey, as I have seen it done over here is a Quick, small spiral used to lift the line (snake lift, spiral lift) into a fairly standard Spey back sweep.
In fact, the opposite to that Dana shows. He makes the Spiral late, we make the spiral early.

Two countries separated by a common cast? :)

If we look at what defines the snake roll in that the line is taken over the top to form the D anchor both of the cast Dana shows are a snake roll. One has an immediate curved lift and the other a straight lift followed by the same movement. I'd personally say they are both the same cast, one having an extended lift.

The Spiral we use is the same start as Dana's Snake roll but smaller and pulled tight to make the C shape travel faster down the line, followed by a standard Spey sweep. The line does not travel above the rod. This makes them two different casts.

Saying all of that, I've not seen every caster in the UK perform this cast and there could be many that do it either way.

How would those on the other side of the pond differentiate the Spiral Spey seen from Dana and the Spiral (or snake) lift?

Cheers,
Carl
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Grampa Spey said:
Thank you Dr Sanity, aka Spey Bro.

Discounting the overhand cast and the underhand, skagit types of casts, how many real casts are there? besides the basic three:

Single Spey
Double Spey
Snake Roll
Switch / Forward
Circle/Snaps
Spiral single

Backhanded Switch, Single. double, snake, snap/circle

square cut

OOZLUM SPEY :eek:

Skagit casts are casts:
Perry poke single
double poke
snake poke
 

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Consider This:

In very simple terms, maybe there are just two casts: presentation (delivery) cast and the set-up cast. If I'm not mistaken, the delvery cast* is the same in ALL casts but the set-up casts takes on different forms thence the different names: Double, Single, Snake (Spiral), Circle, Snap-T, Snap-Z, Pokes, and now my favorite the OOZLUM Spey cast. I quess what I'm trying to say is basically we are trying to make more out of the cast than just a SET-UP and Delivery. The names describe what is happening before the delivery portion of the cast. Lots of hair spilting over is it snake or spiral or e when all we are doing is getting the anchor established. Great topic and it makes me think which is difficult for an old fart. Klem

* Delivery cast is from the Key position to the Stop.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Only two casts?

Well technically yes, in fact it's important to point out to students so that all casts use the same forward cast as a finishing component to make it easier to sort out all the hoopla...

BUT... it's kind of like saying a panhead slotted screw is the same as a bevel head phillips - they each serve a distinct purpose, and their classification is important to teach as it is in practice on the water just as the engineer specifies a certain screw for attaching sheet metal panels and a different one for mounting the hinges. They all have threads that bind the material in a clockwise fashion but the distinction is that they have different heads on them.

IMHO it's interesting and uniform to think of spey casting as one common finishing stroke and a bunch of setup moves but for the purposes of fishing and instruction the names we have given to casts today mean everything.

Keep 'em the way they are.

.02
 

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The name of the game is control the rod tip. The direction, speed and change of speed (not stop) of the rod tip is in essences what controls the line during the set-up phase of the spey type cast. The presentation cast being the same throughout all named casts, then the set-up cast requires the caster to apply a FEEL for the amount of effort to control the rod tip so the line can anchor correctly . Yes, we call these moves the DS, SS, Snap-t etc.... So what this discussion is, is the defination of set-up moves. After the set-up we deliver the weapon of fly destruction. Juro you are right about the importance of naming the set-up so students and fellow casters have a mental picture of the cast. But on the river fishing, all set-up casts should come instinctively and maybe just performed without a mentally NAMED cast. All except the famed OOZLUM SPEY cast. That cast requires much thought before attemping in public view and without a hook at the working end.
I quess what I'm trying to say is: Name the various set-up casts in simple terms so everybodys is on the same page. We are maybe making to much out of variations like spiral vs. snake. Berlin said it best--they are the same just initiated differently, a sky lift or a bank pull first.
My vote goes for the following: Double spey, Single spey, Switch, Snake Roll, Snap-t, Snap-Z, Chip, Poke(Perry Poke with variations) and Overhead (dominate and non-dominate hand on top) Oh yes, the famed OOZLUM SPEY delivery. Each basic cast may have a slight to large variation depending upon current flow, wind direction, obstructions, wading conditions and/or casters abilities, fatique and physical characteristics. Each variation will be up to the individual according to their screnio. My half of .02 worth, Klem
 

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Spiral roll snale roll are the exact same thing the list is only required when picking a longer line.. thats it and their ain't no more
 

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Klem, Simon, Peter

Klem, Thanks for posting this:

"In very simple terms, maybe there are just two casts: presentation (delivery) cast and the set-up cast. If I'm not mistaken, the delivery cast* is the same in ALL casts but the set-up casts takes on different forms thence the different names: Double, Single, Snake (Spiral), Circle, Snap-T, Snap-Z, Pokes, and now my favorite the OOZLUM Spey cast. I quess what I'm trying to say is basically we are trying to make more out of the cast than just a SET-UP and Delivery. The names describe what is happening before the delivery portion of the cast. Lots of hair spilting over is it snake or spiral or e when all we are doing is getting the anchor established. Great topic and it makes me think which is difficult for an old fart. Klem

* Delivery cast is from the Key position to the Stop.

Klem, I'm so new to this, I have a hard time spelling Spey. However, this long discussion of snake versus spiral had started me down the trail to my question re how many casts are there, really, which you answered above. I had broken it down to three basic casts, and that was 3 times the reality in your answer above.

Today before reading your reply, I had just about came to your conclusion. I was on my local river which is a real *****, but it is close about 5 minutes versus 2-3 hours of hard driving. That is the only nice thing about it.

I have one small sandbar that I can cast from. There is no wading. There is a strong tidal
effect which often neutralizes the normal downstream flow, and there strong eddies and reverse currents which can change from cast to cast or in the middle of a cast. Then add winds up to 20 to 30 mph. I got all of that in a two hour session today.

The last hour I was semi automatically doing whatever was required to set up the anchor. Each setup was often different than the setup before and sometimes the 3-5 setups before due to the changing wind, water movement due to gravity, tidal and wind impact.

If I took my time and used various setups to take advantage of the swirling wind and changes in water flow and established a good anchor, I was casting all of the head and belly and at least a rod length of my MS 7/8 with a 12 foot leader, 2 foot of tippet and a large sinking fly with my 6126. I'm sure our experts and pros would have turned their heads in horror, but I was having fun and getting my casts out with minimal effort under some very challenging and constantly changing conditions.

Also, if I used Peter's technique of stopping the rod butt on/against my ample gut with my bottom hand and barely holding the top part of the handle with my other hand, most cast zoomed out inspite of the wind to where I wanted to cast. A few times I changed my hand positions after the set up before my delivery cast to counter or go with a wind change. I still had good casts as my anchor had been setup fairly well (for me).

Thanks Klem for your response, Simon for making hard things simple as usual and Peter for the rod butt and lower hand into the gut and stopping the motion there.

Now Klem, what the heck is the OOZLUM SPEY set up?
 
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