I've wondered the same thing Fred. My main concern would be any external hardware on the pants (ie. zippers/straps) that might be a rubbing concern on inside surface of waders as well as fitment at the ankles (ie. no bulking). As long as nothing obviously their to destroy your waders could work very well. I've got a smooth DWR outer set of v. warm pants myself with the bottom cuffs etc.
I found a deal oneshot deal on the simms bib 300 wt which I've wanted for a while. My circulation's not stellar and feet tend to get cold so looking fwd to trying this. My recent wading boots I bought a bit larger and that seems to have helped notably on the foot front.
I've heard a good direct report on the redington pants as well.
Cabelas has some fleece lined under wader pants. They have some kind of breathable outer fabric, velcro tabs at the ankle so they dont ride up, pockets, etc. Come in basic tan and camo. About $60. I've worn them for years.
I never could get used to foot loops. But these ankle cinch tabs are great.
Roger that "HG," on the 'cold feet.' Yesterday, even in size 12 (normally a 10 in street shoes) I had to exit the river more than once to 'stomp around' a bit. Even changed out a size 12 Chota for a size 12 Simm Freestones .. but too late to do any good.:saevilw:
Wish to hell some boot manufacturer got a clue that when you 'stuff' a couple of pairs of socks into neo booties that the toes no longer fit .. even up-sizing the boot a couple.
Will take a look at the Redington and Cobel's stuff.
Google Patagonia Micro Puff pants. I was shown these for use under your waders on the Bulkley this fall. Nice and warm, and they're kind of slippery so they move well against your waders, making it nice for walking.
Take a look at my article on winter layering. The material is what is important. It must be breathable/wicking. I have taught winter survival in the past. It must breathe, no cotton. All of my ski pants do not allow for proper layering. However, good Army surplus ECWCS (Extended Cold Weather Clothing System) is probably the cheapest, but I buy Duofold winter layers for $5 or less apiece (last ones $2), light, medium or heavy wt. Its the material that is important.
I use heavyweight fleece under my waders for Winter steelheading. Any of these will do, they don't need to be purchased from a fly fishing company. I wear a polypropolene base layer under them.
Last year I bought two pairs of patagonia socks for layering in my boots and they worked fabulously, even when wading in slush. The under layer is a thin wicking sock, covered by a heavy one. All high-tech materials, no cotton or wool.
I have a pair of insulated pants from Go-Lite. Kinda like a a cross between a sleeping bag and a pair of puffy pants. Probably twice as thick as the Patagonia Puff Pant/Marmot insul. pants etc. Not something to be seen walking around town in, but the insulation is Polarguard 3D, a pretty effective synthetic used in high-end sleeping bags and coats. I originally bought them for cold weather camping/backpacking and found that they are sized to fit over your normal clothes when at basecamp, but you look like the Michelin Man. Trading down one size allows me to wear them under waders, or under my rain gear. They do have side zippers, but the pulls end up under velcro tabs at the waist, and the cuffs are OK on abrasion issues. The material puffs out around the zippers themselves and pretty much prevents any wear on the inside of my waders. They are designed pretty much for mountaineering/sub-arctic conditions. I only need them at the coldest times of year or at high altitude
Combined with a pair of midweight fleece and a decent set of longjohns, I frequently find myself in a hurry to get in the river in order to keep from cooking myself.
Too bad my feet still get cold no matter what I do.
I like to visit Outdoor and More in Seattle - sort of an outlet mall for sporting goods. polypro and fleece for super cheap. they may even have a webstie...not sure. But if you're in Seattle this is the place to go to beat REI and flyshop prices.
On the ski pant theme:
I checked out my ski pants again last night to refresh myself, they're cloudveil symmetry I got less than 1/2 price a year ago at local wholesaler/annual public clearance sale event.
Side zippers fully 'covered' and good ankle/waist configuration with excellent breathability and smooth exterior for easy mobility. I'm sure they'd work fine as a layer. FWIW, one can get very simple 'shell' pants, I've often worn a set I have often termed 'river pants' (ie. light/quick drying summer wear) to wear over any layer and provide an easy/slick layer to keep mobility easy. I hate any layers binding with one another, just drags you down and inhibits safe movement and reactions.
Well I got to try my 'ski' pants under my waders on the Thompson last week for one full day. I was surprised at how comfortable I was and very pleased with th e result (both legs and feet). It was ~ -5 to -8 outside (Celsius) and water was definitely cold, and I was about waist deep in the water typically. My feet and legs got 'cool' after a few hours but I never got cold/numb at all and I'm quite sensitive to cold (once I get a bad chill I lose dexterity for the rest of the day).
Patagonia lightweight hiking socks (or midweight? thin either way)
midweight (or lightweight?) power dry long johns, easy 'smooth' base layer
Simms Bibb 300 weight fleece
Patag. EW socks
Cloudveil Symmetry pants
(simms G3/ie. thin flexible/compressed layer when wading)
I had been concerned the 'bell' at bottom of the pants would be bulky/bind up but it did nothing of the sort. Pants are not bulky like typical ski pants so fit like sweats but with greater comfort and function IMO. Schoeller stretch and smooth outer makes for very easy movement/great comfort. I just thought I'd try these and assumed I'd want fleece sweats etc, but I'm sure I'd prefer these now. Easy elastic waste etc and they're not overly warm. I think their airspace and the 300 wt bib create the main warmth. I'd highly rec'd the pants for outdoor cool/cold weather hiking etc as well. Wife and I have enjoyed ours just during cool weather walking locally.
I'm finally also pleased with my sock/foot combo, the dual patagonia socks worked very well. My only concern is my EW socks have a shorter 'ankle' I've been concerned might fall down. 30 minutes of phonecalls around CD/US looking for any stock of their EW (expedition weight) hiking/mountaineering socks (nearly full calf height sock/ie. typical sports sock) finally found them at flyfishusa. Patagonia themselves and many many others do not have stock. I got them 3 business days after placing my order/extraordinary for US to CD etc.
Side note, the simms windstopper fleece gloves/foldover mitts worked very well/surprised me. I was dipping my hand in the v. cold water routinely to grab the top of my wading staff every stepdown and the gloves while soaking wet did a great job of keeping my hands very functional (a common challenge for me).
Enough babbles/but I'm very pleased to have found such a comfortable and warm combo and maybe this will save others from filling up a sock drawer as I have with other brand socks etc! Glad to have found my warm legs combo/never did find a comfortable combo for under my neoprene's in winter.
Bit late but I have just read this thread and cant believe what a namby pamby, weak kneeded, soft livered, snivelling lot some winter fishermen have turned into!!!
Fleece, wool, centrally heated underpants to keep your tackle warm under your waders!! What next!!
Have a look under a Scotsman's kilt in winter!!!
Bring back the good old days when men were men and.............
I ski parttime as a pro-patroller and I am outside most of the day. I was a huge fan of Duofold for many years until I found Under Armor. What I use now to keep warm is Under Armor tights under my uninsulated ski pants. This keeps me warm on all but the coldest days then I add a layer of baggy duofold long johns over the Under Armor. It seems to work better this way because the Under Armor wicks so well and creats an air space between the layers. I also use them, Under Armor, for steelheading in the winter and spring and I have never needed to add more to my legs. I use breathable waders because I can't stand the bulk of neoprenes. My feet are another question. I use Thorlo ski socks which are thin polys for skiing and when I use them in my waders I only have to add a heavy pair of wool socks. This way I do not over bulk my feet cutting off circulation. Yea they still get cold but I can stay in the water much longer than when I used 2 heavy wool socks and cramed my feet into my boots.
I wear sealskins waterproof breathable socks over a thin pair of wicking liner socks. I put a pair of Thermic heating elements on a pair of super-thin insoles between the sealskins and a pair of medium thickness insulating socks. The heating elements attach to Nimh batteries that keep going for 8hrs+ on a charge. Absolutely warm, but not hot or sweaty, feet for winter steelheading after years of frozen feet
Think I'll just wrap my legs with heat tape. Should be easy to run an extension cord out the top of my waders. Good thing my new Tacoma has a 3 prong outlet in the bed. Hell, I can keep the truck running, crank some Motley Crew and with a 100ft extension cord, I should be able to park the truck in positon where I can step down most runs. A quick plug in and we'll be nice and toasty. Winter fishing will never be the same!
I hope I'm not wading nearby when the cord shorts out....:Eyecrazy: :chuckle: It would make you more active than a fresh 15lber that is PISSED!!!!!
I just wear fleece pants--200 wt-- over a pair of polypropelyne long johns.Heavy wool socks over a thin wicking pair in bootfoots does the trick for me.The water temp here on the Muskegon is mid-thirties and I stay warm.
Simms dropped the ball when they stopped making insulated bootfoot boots. I still have a pair of Guide models that does the job in freezing water. Fleece over polypro does the job. Keep the underlayers loose.
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