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swing'n Lemmings
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Ok I was reading a borchure that came with my new dredger glx and it makes mention of a Skagit style double spey....... is there a diffrence in a skagit double spey and a "normal" double spey. is the rod sweep lower to the water for more line stick.
thanks
Rambo
 

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Skagit VS Traditional

I believe that the answer to your question is yes. In a traditional spey cast the forward stroke is more of a touch and go type of cast. Very little "stick". Where as with the skagit style DS there is more "stick" involved and you use tension on the waters surface to help with loading the rod. I hope this helps?
 

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loco alto!
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personally, I think this qualifies as splitting hairs.
 

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Peter,
I agree that the lack of a stopping point is a pivotal peice in the difference. I have based much of my casting on John and Amy Hazel's and Dec Hogan's style of casting, both of which I would argue are skagit'ish styles.

On Dec's video when he describes his double spey he emphasizes both the lack of a stop in movement and that the power is generated and stored during the backcast.

I think his video is an excellent starting point for this type of casting. Hazel's video doesn't talk about these facts as much but if you watch their casts there is no stop after the downstream sweep and before the forward cast.

Does this split hairs ? To some degree probably yes. But through looking at these details I have been able to improve my casting. I do agree that they are not necessarily different casts but rather different styles for performing the same cast.

I have read posts from Ed where he doesn't like the C spey for generating power as much as he like the perry poke. Dec speaks more favorably of the C spey. I think this goes to show that even within "skagit casting" there are different styles.

Gillie
 

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loco alto!
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All double speys load the rod during the sweep. How much depends on sweep speed and tackle. Fast sweep, more load. Heavy line and/or soft rod, more load. This changes the casting dynamics, and you gotta be careful to not throw that D-loop too far upstream, but c'mon its still a DS. Shorter lines inherently require less time (pause) for the D loop to express itself. All sources emphasize the importance of storing casting power in the D-loop as opposed to creating new power on the forward stroke, something like 70/30 according to Simon G. The ratio shifts as the belly gets longer.
 

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Peter,
I was rethinking some of the casting that I've watched with Dec and Hazel's. It may not be entirely accurate for me to classify it as Skagit casting as many define it. Although in Dec's video he talks about no pause and uses short belly lines he often has a "touch and go cast", particularly on his single spey. From what I understan, single spey and skagit casting don't go together, but I might be mistaken.

Ed has emphasized the concept of increased water contact with skagit casting. With a short belly line you can cast in a fairly traditional manner with no pause because you are not having to wait for a long length of line to move. The shorter taper loads the rod more quickly.

I guess my point is that although skagit casting can not have a pause to be effective (at least from what you and I understand ), there is a middle ground where you can have a more taditional cast without a pause also. The more I think about it I believe it is the total water contact that makes the skagit cast as most people talk about it here the skagit cast.

I have emulated more the style that Dec shows in his video.

Gillie
 

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Kevin,
Let me preface this by saying that my knowledge on this is sparse but from reading his posts and watching him on the spey clave video I thought the perry poke had the poke in the middle and the double spey looked basically the same but with a different way of loading and making the forward cast.

Gillie
 

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Steelhead are cool!
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I think he has two versions. One is pretty much a standard double the other
is one he does river left, casting right hand up over left shoulder. The second one is where he uses a poke in the middle.
Hopefully someone who knows for sure will comment. I may be talking out of my ass! :rolleyes:
 

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Peter,
This goes back to the splitting hair comment earlier. I agree that taking peices from different techniques and putting them together to find a comfotable cast is the way to go about it.

Gillie
 

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loco alto!
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Peter, don't get me wrong: I use these short-belly, heavy load "skagit" techniques and find them very effective for some situations. They work with floating lines and dries, too. My skepticism isn't one of their efficacy, but instead of whether the techniques are vitally distinct independent of the tackle employed. Dana underhands with longbellies. Therein lies my point. Can one perform a snap-T or perry poke with 90' of XLT beyond the rod tip? Absolutely. With no pause? I think not. The loop needs time to form. Some attributes of "skagit" casts are locked to the tackle. This forces adaptation of standard techniques. Pause with a small D and watch it collapse - bad form! That's all I'm saying. Some of the modifications are necessary outgrowths of the tackle employed.

I'll repeat - the methods are very effective, and I enjoy them. Its interesting that some had to wait around for a rod company to market rods expressly for this purpose before believing that soft rods (or long bellies, for that matter) have their place. Gotta get beyond the marketing, new niches for old wallets. Occasionally a truly revolutionary development occurs, but for most of it, its all shades my friend.
 

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loco alto!
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To me they are as much the same cast as with a fly when material A is replaced with material B, then renamed and trademarked. I bet if 20 people on this board were asked to tie a Lady Caroline independently, they'd all be different. Should they then be called a Lady Amy, Lady Betty, Lady Caroline, Lady Dianne, Lady Emily, etc...???
 

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JD
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Water load

Gillie said:
Peter,
The more I think about it I believe it is the total water contact that makes the skagit cast (as most people talk about it here) the skagit cast.
Gillie
Water load is precicely it! Think about it. with such a short head, there just ain't that much of a D-loop to create a load. You need that line stick to help load the rod.

Whether or not you put a stop at the end of the backcast stroke is another matter. The issue here being the rod unloads and you then have to re-load it again on the forward stroke, vs. a constant load on the rod throughout the stroke. Some refer to this as "shocking" the rod.

As an aside, I don't care how good you are, you are not going to make a very good "Skagit" cast with a long D-loop, V-loop, whatever. That line schtick will kill you. :lildevl:
 

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loco alto!
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Peter

I suppose you've been through this before :rolleyes: and I should know better than to try to sway your opinion. I've always been a lumper. Lots of people are splitters. That's just the way it is.
 

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So Brian, do we sound like a bunch of schmucks that don't know what we are talking about :roll: :smokin:

Gillie
 

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After reading all the stuff on this board for a long time, casting some, and thinking about a lot, I've been thinking along the same lines as JD and SSPey:

Here's my take:

The short heads were developed as a preferred delivery system for the chosen flies and presentations.

Short heads REQUIRE more line stick (anchor, grip, water load, whatever you want to call it) than long bellies for optimum casting. You can even tell this using a Windcutter and a Mid-Spey, but it becomes more obvious if you compare a cast using a Windcutter vs. using an XLT or TT Spey.

Short heads obviously require a smaller D-loop--there's no line for a big D-loop!

Small D-loops take less time to form, making a continuous motion possible.

It seems obvious that a continous motion to create a D-loop can put a greater load on the rod than a SUAS motion, as you have rod mass as well as line mass loading the rod.

So it all comes back to the short head. You can't effectively make a continous motion cast with a long head and a modern graphite rod, although it may have been done in the past with greenheart. You can't effectively cast a long belly with a "water load", it's called line stick and it's bad.

I'm looking forward to finishing my short head line and testing my opinions.

--Bill
 

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Jolly Buddha
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Gillie said:
So Brian, do we sound like a bunch of schmucks that don't know what we are talking about :roll: :smokin:

Gillie
It's just a fun read.

And thats all I will say, Bill has the idea
 
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