I'm trying to get more distance with my casts on a my beulah classic switch 6/7. I 'm using a SA 360 grain skagit extreme head with 10' t-14. the typical cast usually ends up without much power and appears that the sink tip and sometimes weighted fly are just dug in too much for a snap c/t. I experiment with anchor placement and of course the closer the anchor the better the cast, but still seemed like I was working too hard. could this setup be too heavy of a tip? I think I need a refresher cours on the mathematics of skagit/sink tip formulation. I did notice that when I paused only for a moment after the sweep to let the line form a more airborne d-loop the cast required way less effort. I'll stop here and let you guys chime in
skagit cast has been better
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perhaps...
...Your skagit head might be too light?
I don't normally comment on casting issues, as I certainly have enough of my own..... but I am thinking that a 360gr skagit on a 6/7 set up seems particularly light.
A head of only 360 gr might have trouble loading the rod ( although I am sure some skilled casters could find a way to make it work on that rod).
Furthermore....add 10 ft of T14 (AND a weighted fly) to the end of such a light head and it might have trouble turning over all that mass (10 ft of T14 weight 140 grains ).
You might want to try a skagit head in the 450 - 480 grain range? I think that is the range that is often considered for rods in the 6 weight category. I am sure a 450 gr head can handle 10 ft of T14, but if you went with T11 it would be much easier to turn over. You probably don't even need T14 unless you are turning over some REALLY big flies....
Just thoughts....
...Your skagit head might be too light?
I don't normally comment on casting issues, as I certainly have enough of my own..... but I am thinking that a 360gr skagit on a 6/7 set up seems particularly light.
A head of only 360 gr might have trouble loading the rod ( although I am sure some skilled casters could find a way to make it work on that rod).
Furthermore....add 10 ft of T14 (AND a weighted fly) to the end of such a light head and it might have trouble turning over all that mass (10 ft of T14 weight 140 grains ).
You might want to try a skagit head in the 450 - 480 grain range? I think that is the range that is often considered for rods in the 6 weight category. I am sure a 450 gr head can handle 10 ft of T14, but if you went with T11 it would be much easier to turn over. You probably don't even need T14 unless you are turning over some REALLY big flies....
Just thoughts....
The Duck may be on to something here...
140 grains of sinktip plus perhaps 30 or 40 grains of fly? Combined that is pushing 50% of the head weight being used. Too much? Maybe.
Would it be worth trying fewer grains of sinktip, either via shorter length of T-14 or if 10 feet of sinktip is what you like, T-11 or T-8?
Going to a heavier head may work too--my 1166 6/7 forecast easily handles 500 grains, though your switch rod may not.
Try a few different things, something will surely show improvement.
140 grains of sinktip plus perhaps 30 or 40 grains of fly? Combined that is pushing 50% of the head weight being used. Too much? Maybe.
Would it be worth trying fewer grains of sinktip, either via shorter length of T-14 or if 10 feet of sinktip is what you like, T-11 or T-8?
Going to a heavier head may work too--my 1166 6/7 forecast easily handles 500 grains, though your switch rod may not.
Try a few different things, something will surely show improvement.
Sounds to me like your trying to carry too much freight with that set up.
I'm not sure on this, but I think the Beulah switches are single hand weight designated, so the 360 is probably about right. But I think your t14 is way too much tip for that head. I'd drop to t8 or some such (maybe 11), and then start with a smaller fly and see how much freight you can carry.
ON the switch I'd try a skagit short or similar, as it will give you as much mass/ft as possible, helping carry as much tip/fly as you can get away with.
I'm not sure on this, but I think the Beulah switches are single hand weight designated, so the 360 is probably about right. But I think your t14 is way too much tip for that head. I'd drop to t8 or some such (maybe 11), and then start with a smaller fly and see how much freight you can carry.
ON the switch I'd try a skagit short or similar, as it will give you as much mass/ft as possible, helping carry as much tip/fly as you can get away with.
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I cast a 450 skagit quite well on a 12' 6/7 spey but 10' of t14 may be a bit much. Try a smaller tip, maybe 8' of t11? My 420 rage will easily toss 12' of t-8
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If your rod is the 11'6" classic, Rio's recommendation is Skagit 425-475. This is the shooting head only.
Could always give Bruce a call.
Could always give Bruce a call.
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Im guessing its a 10'6" switch. Not sure how they grade their rods but it should be around the 380-400 grn is my guess
sounds like a few great suggestions here and thank you. the 360 was suggested by a well known shop out of Oregon. so I trusted them. but as I was outfitting this rod the general opinion was 420 and when I called to order this line I was told it was way too much for the rod. yes it is 10'6. I also considered dropping down to t-11 or t-8. look alike I'll be placing an order to poppy and not that other shop
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spdf jason suggested a check of the Rio website for grain wt compatibility.
Rio seems to suggest 375gr (if you are "advanced") or 425 for most casters like me. I tend towards the heavier Rio recommendations personally.
The Airflo site also has their suggestions tabled here:
http://www.airflofishing.com/airflo_us_downloads/Airflo_Spey_Compatibility_Chart.pdf
Airflo (Rajeff Sports) seems to recommend 450 or 480gr. It is interesting that they suggest a heavier line than Rio.
I guess this illustrates that different casters can like different grain weights on the same rod. Everyone has a preference, so there really is no "right or wrong". It is entirely possible that the advice you were given was meant to be helpful, and based on the experience of the employee.
If you are having trouble with the light 360 gr head, then, given the information presented, it would be reasonable to assume that going heavier would be helpful. Maybe try a 450 airflo switch with some lighter 10 ft tips (medium T11 MOW's perhaps) and some lightly weighted or unweighted flies.
spdf jason suggested a check of the Rio website for grain wt compatibility.
Rio seems to suggest 375gr (if you are "advanced") or 425 for most casters like me. I tend towards the heavier Rio recommendations personally.
The Airflo site also has their suggestions tabled here:
http://www.airflofishing.com/airflo_us_downloads/Airflo_Spey_Compatibility_Chart.pdf
Airflo (Rajeff Sports) seems to recommend 450 or 480gr. It is interesting that they suggest a heavier line than Rio.
I guess this illustrates that different casters can like different grain weights on the same rod. Everyone has a preference, so there really is no "right or wrong". It is entirely possible that the advice you were given was meant to be helpful, and based on the experience of the employee.
If you are having trouble with the light 360 gr head, then, given the information presented, it would be reasonable to assume that going heavier would be helpful. Maybe try a 450 airflo switch with some lighter 10 ft tips (medium T11 MOW's perhaps) and some lightly weighted or unweighted flies.
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The 360 Skagit Extreme in your OP stood out to me also as possibly being too light for a 6/7. I cast a 450 Sakgit Extreme on several 6/7 or straight 7-weight rods.
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Pretty much agree with others, head is on the light side. A Skagit Short has a little more turnover capacity. 420 - 450gr would be my try. 450gr Skagit will easily turn over 10' - 12' T-14 and realistic size fly. Unsure about heavy / large ones, I don't fish them much.
This morning, with some coffee in my hand, I looked a the Airflow compatibility chart on Rajeff's pages, and it looks like they recommend the 450 compact skagit, or the 480 skagit switch, for the 10 1/2' 67 Beulah Classic. Either of those should toss your t 14 if you are spot on, but I find using t11 allows for a more relaxed day fishing, just not maxing out your concentration all day long. ANd I think it fishes as deep, just won't carry quite such a big fly.
With the really short heads, I find the anchor placement can make a big difference. I also find the circle is way easier to carefully place your anchor than the snap, but that's just me. When you circle over and back under, pay close attention to how far back under you come, experimenting with where your anchor lands. Circle way back under, and your sweep will pull much of your anchor up with it. Dropping your tip sooner in the circle, dropping your tip further from you, may make it easier to maintain the anchor as you sweep. Once you find the sweet spot a couple times, it will become pretty obvious.
I also find that with skagit especially, it helps me to watch the anchor, and when the momentum of the sweep pulls the anchor perpendicular to it's original position, and inline with your target, your start your stroke.
With the really short heads, I find the anchor placement can make a big difference. I also find the circle is way easier to carefully place your anchor than the snap, but that's just me. When you circle over and back under, pay close attention to how far back under you come, experimenting with where your anchor lands. Circle way back under, and your sweep will pull much of your anchor up with it. Dropping your tip sooner in the circle, dropping your tip further from you, may make it easier to maintain the anchor as you sweep. Once you find the sweet spot a couple times, it will become pretty obvious.
I also find that with skagit especially, it helps me to watch the anchor, and when the momentum of the sweep pulls the anchor perpendicular to it's original position, and inline with your target, your start your stroke.
Thanks for all the info. I've decided to give the airflow 450 compact a try. I'm sure that will help. And who doesn't want a more relaxed fishing day so I'll step down to t-11 and t-8. More gear:hihi:
SLSS thanks for the pointers too
SLSS thanks for the pointers too
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Rio vs Airflo grain weight differences?
Maybe this is not an uncommon problem?
I had this dilemma when I started... Bought and Echo DH2 7130 and the skagit recommendations between Rio and Airflo were significantly different. I went with the Airflo line at their recommendation, but its hard to know when we are talking about the same measurement (grains) for one rod...
Maybe this is not an uncommon problem?
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my opinion...
- Your head was correct at 360g
440/450 is for a full 2hander 6wt... not a 10'6 switch. I found the Beulah classics to be a deeper flexing slower rod than their platinum's... IMO going over 400g on that rod is going to feel clunky/heavy... and a whole 'nother set of issues when you start adding head length on a 10'6 rod
- 10' of T14 is too much for 360 at 20'... personally i think 450g factory skagit is the lightest head for 8'- 10' of t14... and it is still heavy
maybe ask "why" are you looking at T14 and try to solve the issue with fly/leader/mends/ect instead of a monster tip. Are you really fishing a fly/situation the requires t14
- try t8/t11 5'- 10' on the 360g... you may find that your issues were all in the tip
-"switch" is not an easy term to discuss... people giving you opinions on "switches" could be thinking about 11'- 11'6 rods... thats a big difference to 10'6. I'm sure there is some geometry/math about a circle radius length (rod) increasing to impact the circumference of a circle (sweep)... and as SLSS said, going shorter seams to have an exponential increase in loss of room for error...
IF you are dead set on buying a new line and feel you need to get down consider this
375g with 5' of t11 may do you right
http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/spey/skagit/skagit-ishort/
- Your head was correct at 360g
440/450 is for a full 2hander 6wt... not a 10'6 switch. I found the Beulah classics to be a deeper flexing slower rod than their platinum's... IMO going over 400g on that rod is going to feel clunky/heavy... and a whole 'nother set of issues when you start adding head length on a 10'6 rod
- 10' of T14 is too much for 360 at 20'... personally i think 450g factory skagit is the lightest head for 8'- 10' of t14... and it is still heavy
maybe ask "why" are you looking at T14 and try to solve the issue with fly/leader/mends/ect instead of a monster tip. Are you really fishing a fly/situation the requires t14
- try t8/t11 5'- 10' on the 360g... you may find that your issues were all in the tip
-"switch" is not an easy term to discuss... people giving you opinions on "switches" could be thinking about 11'- 11'6 rods... thats a big difference to 10'6. I'm sure there is some geometry/math about a circle radius length (rod) increasing to impact the circumference of a circle (sweep)... and as SLSS said, going shorter seams to have an exponential increase in loss of room for error...
IF you are dead set on buying a new line and feel you need to get down consider this
375g with 5' of t11 may do you right
http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/spey/skagit/skagit-ishort/
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Excellent post.
Lots of good stuff in this post to consider. One point though, having cast the 6/7 classic switch I would not enjoy casting a head of that weight and think others are correct to advise a heavier one. If I recall correctly I *think* the head weight I was casting on that rod was 420g? If the OP was talking about a 5/6 switch then yes I think the head weight would be about right.
Either way, that tip is very heavy and not the kind of thing I would enjoy casting on that rod regardless of your head weight. Not saying it can't be done, just that I would not personally want to do it. T-8 or T-11, matched to the fly size and the head weight would be a lot easier to cast all day with a lot less frustration.
One of my early epiphanies while struggling for more depth in heavy winter flows was that I was spending a lot of time not fishing as effectively as I could be. All those flubbed casts, line tangles, cursing sessions, etc cost a lot of fishing time; all in a struggle to gain a bit more depth. I thought about it, and wondered how much more depth I was actually gaining, and came to the realization that I would probably have higher odds by dropping the weight on my tip and fly size. Keeping the fly in the water more of the time, means it's closer to being in their sight and range of interest than if I'm messing around trying for another cast...
Best of luck,
JB
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could be 100% true
all of this comes down to personal pref and most importably casting style and types of casts. the line recs from line and/or rod companies are starting points.. not gospel and i think that can be confusing/ frustrating when they are looked at as being absolutes
I have moved to using lighter heads on my shorter rod and find that the rod responds better and is more enjoyable.... setups and sweeps super close in the skagit-style... but allowing for high stops, underhand loops, and more "scandi"
"Skagit" doesn't have to be 28' beer cans, 15' of t14, and a rod overloading into the cork with a 2sec recovery.... as myself and many other probably thought when we first got into it
I have the classic 6\7 Jason. I feel as you have been reading my mail about flubbed casts and cursing sessions. I have had other skagit set-ups that were money and the line and tips jumped out of the water....so Perhaps the line is not enough and asking too much of with the tips.
You know after owning a few different rod and line combos I could really tell something was wrong,but didn't know what it could be
You know after owning a few different rod and line combos I could really tell something was wrong,but didn't know what it could be
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360 grains
Is fine on that rod!
The differences in companies rec's do not reflect the differences in peoples casting stroke as much as it is a lack of time and effort put into creating the grain rec charts...hell, you could put a 600 gr. head on the rod if you wanted it to. I rep for the company...so I own them all. If I wanted to cast 10' of T 14 I would choose the Classic 10'6" 8/9 which likes a heavier head that will in turn act as the motor to drive the heavier tip and fly.
If the line feels a little light on that rod you could bump up to a 400 grain Skagit head.
There are some good ideas in previous post to bump down to T11 and/or T8.
What kind of distance are you looking for realistically? Keep in mind Switch rods can go a fair distance and cast sinking tips along with flies on the larger side, but no switch will not replace the ultimate distance you could achieve with something like a 13'1" 6 weight or other longer Spey rod.
BB~
Is fine on that rod!
The differences in companies rec's do not reflect the differences in peoples casting stroke as much as it is a lack of time and effort put into creating the grain rec charts...hell, you could put a 600 gr. head on the rod if you wanted it to. I rep for the company...so I own them all. If I wanted to cast 10' of T 14 I would choose the Classic 10'6" 8/9 which likes a heavier head that will in turn act as the motor to drive the heavier tip and fly.
If the line feels a little light on that rod you could bump up to a 400 grain Skagit head.
There are some good ideas in previous post to bump down to T11 and/or T8.
What kind of distance are you looking for realistically? Keep in mind Switch rods can go a fair distance and cast sinking tips along with flies on the larger side, but no switch will not replace the ultimate distance you could achieve with something like a 13'1" 6 weight or other longer Spey rod.
BB~
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