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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I am using 450 grain Airflo Skagit Compact head, 12.5' Rio Light MOW T8 tip, 3' FC tippet and lighty weighted streamer, wooly bugger with some lead wire on the hook.

I can normaly do basic roll cast this setup and the turnover is great and clean. BUT, when doing Snap T or Double Spey, the tip and the fly always sinks too fast during pause and sweep, so the head does not have enough power on forward stroke to get it out completely of the water, so it just drags behind the head flying forward.

What is the mistake? Maybe too long tip? Wrong positioning of the head or just something wrong with the sweep? I am using G.Loomis Versaspey 6/7 13' rod.

I have no problems with Scandi Compact Head 420 grain, poly or just monoleader with the same streamer. But I want to go deep with Skagit and T8 tip.
I have tried also 510 grain skagit, it looks little too much for the rod, and also the same problem, maybe little better than 450 grain skagit, sometimes with much bigger loop it will take the tip from the water, but just occasionaly.
 

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There is nothing wrong with your setup, so, the question is, what is going wrong with your cast. Close to impossible to diagnose remotely, particularly without more detail. The usual issues are one or more of:

  1. Pause too long after anchor set.
  2. Anchor out of position.
  3. Timing issues -- executing forward cast too soon.
  4. Introduction of slack at any number of places in the cast. Your line needs to be fully under tension and slack-free before starting the forward cast. Well really at all times but that's your last chance to get things together.

12.5' of T8 is neither too heavy nor too long for a 13' rod with 450-500 gr skagit head, but a shorter tip as suggested in previous post will certainly help you refine technique and identify the issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I will try with shorter tip, or even better, shoot the video.

Regarding the pause, I have tried everything, from no pause to 1 or 2 second, it seems no change, same issue.
It might be the problem with the slack, I can not remove the wrinkles from the new head. It is brand new head, using large arbour reel, no idea what to on the water to make it smoooth and straight.

Have to practice more with anchor positioning and timing of forward cast.

By the way, what is the best practice to put after the T-8? Just short piece of FC or short tapered mono leader with FC tippet? How long this piece after T-8 is recommended?

Thanks for troubleshooting!
 

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There is nothing wrong with your setup, so, the question is, what is going wrong with your cast. Close to impossible to diagnose remotely, particularly without more detail. The usual issues are one or more of:

  1. Pause too long after anchor set.
  2. Anchor out of position.
  3. Timing issues -- executing forward cast too soon.
  4. Introduction of slack at any number of places in the cast. Your line needs to be fully under tension and slack-free before starting the forward cast. Well really at all times but that's your last chance to get things together.

12.5' of T8 is neither too heavy nor too long for a 13' rod with 450-500 gr skagit head, but a shorter tip as suggested in previous post will certainly help you refine technique and identify the issues.
Nailed it. It's the operator.

No reason to pause with a skagit. Pausing will allow the head to recontact the water when forming the d loop. The rod will not be able to produce the force required to rip it from the surface tention and the cast will be lackluster, having no energy.

Keep the line moving so there's never any slack line. My guess is you are not lifting the head off the water either because your sweep back is not vertical enough, swift enough if not verticle enough, or your dipping your rod tip on the sweep. Watch your line. Focus on only the sink tip/tippet/fly being in the water on the forward cast. You'll be amazed how easy your setup will perform for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You got me wrong, I have no pause after sweep, it is continous motion.
I am playing with the pause after positioning the line, so at the end of snap t for example. I do no see the difference between 0, 1 or 2 second pause regarding my problem.

I have watched Skagit Master 1 and trying to copy the moves.
 

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one big reason for the line not coming out cleanly is that you are likely dipping the rod tip too much and dropping too much line on the water during or at the end of the sweep - this often occurs if you break your wrist - this can not only drop the tip too low but also cause you to sweep the d loop too far around.

In SM 1 Ed talks about the 45 thrust - this essentially stops the rod sweep at the proper time - because the motion is out and around, if you do not stop this out and around motion at the 45 thrust position, the line will continue to sweep around too far in back which causes a misalignment of the 180 principal of back cast to forward cast and also induces slack

sounds complicated but the 45 thrust is important in the technique discussed in SM 1

One more thing to look for - try to lay your line as close to you as possible on the set so that when you go into the sweep, the line will be traveling outside the plane of the static line on the water - this creates the best loading opportunity and reduces the chance of slack developing
 

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Just for kicks, how about trying the setup with a light, small fly. If you still have problems, then try a different tip.
If the outfit casts with a light, small fly, then perhaps a shorter tip and a somewhat smaller fly will cast ok with that outfit.
A friend who was fishing a new 5/6wt. outfit well all of a sudden had problems when a big sinktip and a big heavy fly were added. By substituting out one or the other, things went well. Eventually, with a change in stroke, both would work.
Good luck; don't get frustrated. It is all part of the learning curve, and we're all still learning.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks all for the advice, really looking forward for the next full day on the water!

I am really new with two hand casting, bought 2 rods very recently and trying to practice as much as possible. Maybe trying too many things at the same time! :) Casting with Scandi line and small flies is quite nice after one session with the guru for Scandi style of casting.
 

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I have watched Skagit Master 1 and trying to copy the moves.
In my experience 'copying the moves' doesn't get you very far. Figure out what the moves are doing and why, then determine where your cast is going wrong. Usually the issue is that all 'the moves' are being executed, but there is also *something else* going on, some additional move, ruining the cast. Rick gave one example above.

Can you feel your line under tension at every point in the cast from the beginning of the sweep up to the forward rod stop?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Nobody answered one other mistery, what is the best practice to put after the T-8? Just short piece of FC or short tapered mono leader with FC tippet? How long this piece after T-8 is recommended?

I understand that there is no point in putting long mono or FC leader after sinking T tip because of creating belly on the bottom of the river, so what is the best lenght? My guess would be 2-3 foot.
 

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yes - just a short piece of tippet - often you are only fishing 3 to 4 feet of tippet on a "T" tip. Tie on a piece of yarn to the end if you don't want to practice with a fly

good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have changed the setup to 480 grain skagit and little shorter MOW, 10' T8 and now it works great!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Rick J, after watching some videos of my casting, I have noticed I was breaking rule 45, and throwing the loop little behind me. Also I was over rotating the top hand wrist and the rod tip was going to low so was loosing tension.

It is interesting that most of those problems were fixed before realizing the problem and with little different setup. The bad thing is that the hucho hucho season is over, so little oportunities until next winter here for heavier skagit work, maybe only one or two rivers with deep areas for trout.

Dreaming about steelhead :)
 
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