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Discussion Starter #1
I would be interested in hearing how you all like to do your sweep with shorter shooting heads
 

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Another option that Eurosexual anglers use in Sweeedon, is to use roll casts when fishing their awesome new Scandi controlled density sinking shooting heads, like Guideline’s 3D+ H/I/S2 (Hover/Intermediate/Sink2). These full sinking lines are more challenging to cast with their added subsurface resistance or drag. These wily Scandinavian anglers use a roll cast rather than a spey cast as it is easier to cast these full sinking 33 foot heads and a weighted 5 inch Banana fly. A roll cast or two is made when the line is dangling directly down stream (at the end of the swing) to bring it up on the surface with the leader, and fly. They utilize the force of the current flow to help hold it on the surface while they use a roll cast or a single spey to easily cast this full sinking shooting head.

I was taught this technique which makes it much easier to cast these floating or sinking Scandi Shooting Heads with my shorter 11 to 13 foot bamboo rods. A faster action graphite switch or 13 foot Scandi rod will easily roll these sinking lines to the surface for easy casting. These partial sinking or full sinking shooting heads have made late fall, winter, and early spring steelheading much easier to get your fly into the proper depth. The strait line connection to the fly has eliminated the problem of hinging with a sinking tip looped onto a floating line. These heads have added sensitivity to help feel those light hits in winter steelheading. If you haven’t tried these lines, you’re not catching as many fish as you could be hooking up with.
 

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Hi Tim. Nice Vid. Great question!

I guess I spey cast scandi-heads the same way I speycast any other head-length or style of line. It is not necessary to change technique for different styles of lines. Only change needed is if and when one want to copy/impersonate someone's personal style.

V-loop: Myth or misunderstanding?
Did you know the "V-loop" is Al Buhr's own and if you've ever watch him cast then you should understand what he is saying???
Don't forget there aren't too many things in fly-casting that work well and far fewer that work better still. So I think when someone at a level such as Al puts something out there must be something to it...

Vic.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
V loop

Hi Tim. Nice Vid. Great question!

I guess I spey cast scandi-heads the same way I speycast any other head-length or style of line. It is not necessary to change technique for different styles of lines. Only change needed is if and when one want to copy/impersonate someone's personal style.

V-loop: Myth or misunderstanding?
Did you know the "V-loop" is Al Buhr's own and if you've ever watch him cast then you should understand what he is saying???
Don't forget there aren't too many things in fly-casting that work well and far fewer that work better still. So I think when someone at a level such as Al puts something out there must be something to it...

Vic.
I like V loops. but I personally, put so much emphasis on it at first that the forward cast was neglected, in search of not just a V loop, but an ultra powerful, mystical, perfect V loop that would supercharge cast my cast and I put WAY to much emphasis on the speed into the V loop than was required. Without a good forward cast, the V loop means nothing.

Also, viewed from above, the V loop is different than from the side view. Its 3 dementional. So from above it appears different than the V as seen from the side.

Also, on shorter lines, it doesn't matter all that much from my experience. Cloner recommended that I concentrate on perfect anchor as too much emphasis on the V loop creates inconsistency, with Scandi heads.

Moderation in all things has helped me in this case.

I have seen Al Cast in person and I know he is Brian Styskal's casting coach and Bryan was second at Speyorama and a multiple top ten finisher and helped develop Boss Spey lines which I have enjoyed immensely. So I have great respect for Al's abilities and would love to learn more from him.

But I question everything, bar none.

Also, sometimes the V loop is not created until the forward cast is in motion so not all photos of the V loop are true V loops IMO. for whatever that's worth.

I still like a crisp V loop but I dont go overboard any more and I'm sure there is many a D loop distance caster who can blow me away.



Also
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
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One thing to think about concerning the so called super V loop is this......if your speeding the line back into your D loop are you making it easy to set up for the forward cast as in drifting the bottom hand out or even worse are your anchors consistently landing?
:wink2:
 

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Also, viewed from above, the V loop is different than from the side view. Its 3 dementional. So from above it appears different than the V as seen from the side.
Ding.Ding.Ding. Winner...winner...chicken dinner.

People once (and still do) thought the world was flat.


Another way to look at this:

The water tension from our anchor can only sustain so much energy. Too much, and it will blow and that effort will be lost.

You can put more into your D-Loop, but then you just have to compensate by taking it out of the forward cast.

That can work but by powering the sweep and D-loop formation, striving for the mythical V, you have increased another variable into your cast. The more variables the worse the consistency.

By keeping your D-loop formation consistent in terms of power application (and everything else), regardless of cast length, you have eliminated as many variables as possible. Power is then applied at the last possible instant to equal what is needed for the cast.
 

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:) But it isn't anything super-charged, super, mystical or mythical. It is, in fact, just "V-loop" or wedged-shaped as affected and observed by the caster...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ding.Ding.Ding. Winner...winner...chicken dinner.

People once (and still do) thought the world was flat.


Another way to look at this:

The water tension from our anchor can only sustain so much energy. Too much, and it will blow and that effort will be lost.

You can put more into your D-Loop, but then you just have to compensate by taking it out of the forward cast.

That can work but by powering the sweep and D-loop formation, striving for the mythical V, you have increased another variable into your cast. The more variables the worse the consistency.

By keeping your D-loop formation consistent in terms of power application (and everything else), regardless of cast length, you have eliminated as many variables as possible. Power is then applied at the last possible instant to equal what is needed for the cast.
The more variables the worse the consistency. Really good stuff and worth reading a few times for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
:) But it isn't anything super-charged, super, mystical or mythical. It is, in fact, just "V-loop" or wedged-shaped as affected and observed by the caster...
No, but it is sometimes described as fast and flat, so in my mind, faster and flatter is even better, or course :hihi: so I had unrealistic expectations.

The video was geared toward Scandi lines because most around here fish skagit in winter and scandi come summer.

So for these shorter dry lines I really don't think it matters enough to make that much of a difference. That's why I made the video, so people would not agonize over trivialities but rather major on the majors.
 

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:) But it isn't anything super-charged, super, mystical or mythical. It is, in fact, just "V-loop" or wedged-shaped as affected and observed by the caster...
Well, if observations (looks) are what is most important, I'd recommend placing your anchor really far away from your body. Then snap some photos and you will have a super point V-loop. Of course, the cast won't be worth a ****.
 

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Well, if observations (looks) are what is most important, I'd recommend placing your anchor really far away from your body. Then snap some photos and you will have a super point V-loop. Of course, the cast won't be worth a ****.
Ok Zack. Duly noted :chuckle:
Hey man - No skin off my back. I just have say - remarkable waste of effort in completely misconstruing something as simple as v-loop simply because you can't or don't want to understand.
 

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Ok Zack. Duly noted :chuckle:
Hey man - No skin off my back. I just have say - remarkable waste of effort in completely misconstruing something as simple as v-loop simply because you can't or don't want to understand.
Oh, but I do want to understand! In simple physics, how and why is a V-Loop superior to a D-Loop?

My observation is that this V-loop has been promoted as a magic, mystical casting secret by so many with little or no evidence to back it up. And, worse than that, chasing this unicorn has sent many learning spey casters on a tangent far off line from what is truly critical to achieving reasonable proficiency as casters.

Convince me as to why you have to have a V-loop to be a good spey caster ... and how it works.

I am all ears and enjoy the discussion.
 

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Cmon Zack he read it once in a book so it’s a fact
>:)
 

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I'm not the one concerned with superiority here. Nice try though. I don't need to convince you either. The info IS "out there" that you can find it yourself if you truly wanted to. I can point you in a couple directions. I don't ask you to do something i don't do myself.

There is no myth as you claimed and no one said anything remotely close that "you have to have a V-loop to be a good spey caster." At least not me. The "How" is the easy part. It doesn't take a great amount of effort on the lower handle to relocate the fly from the dangle. And without getting very long-worded the wedge shape/v-loop is shaped in a similar manner as the "climbing loop" /tank tracks are formed. If you are familiar with that. It is a "stop" followed by "drift or circle-up" motion in the backcast/sweep/anchor set. It gives flat shape to the anchor so that the fly and tippet come down first and with the line raising/inclined to a pointed apex that when followed to the rod tip it traces a wedge shape against the backdrop. It may or may not be possible to look at the apex - depending on how close one is inclined to set the fly.

I like setting the fly close to me. Within rods length as my preference but not hard-bound to it. So the apex is behind me most of the time that I cannot see it. However; the v-loop can be seen already taking shape that I don't have to look to know. Putting the fly near me and shaping anchor this way assures that a) anchor is minimal and b) v-loop is as large as possible. Large as possible to the rear of the angler as opposed to the rod tip because when the fly is anchored out, or further from the caster - then the v-loop behind takes less space and so it can be said to become smaller.

Consistent anchor placement comes from repetition and practice. But it is through practice and repetition that I've come to realize that anchprs do not have to be placed exactly at the same spot in reference to the caster.
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
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I'm not the one concerned with superiority here. Nice try though. I don't need to convince you either. The info IS "out there" that you can find it yourself if you truly wanted to. I can point you in a couple directions. I don't ask you to do something i don't do myself.

There is no myth as you claimed and no one said anything remotely close that "you have to have a V-loop to be a good spey caster." At least not me. The "How" is the easy part. It doesn't take a great amount of effort on the lower handle to relocate the fly from the dangle. And without getting very long-worded the wedge shape/v-loop is shaped in a similar manner as the "climbing loop" /tank tracks are formed. If you are familiar with that. It is a "stop" followed by "drift or circle-up" motion in the backcast/sweep/anchor set. It gives flat shape to the anchor so that the fly and tippet come down first and with the line raising/inclined to a pointed apex that when followed to the rod tip it traces a wedge shape against the backdrop. It may or may not be possible to look at the apex - depending on how close one is inclined to set the fly.

I like setting the fly close to me. Within rods length as my preference but not hard-bound to it. So the apex is behind me most of the time that I cannot see it. However; the v-loop can be seen already taking shape that I don't have to look to know. Putting the fly near me and shaping anchor this way assures that a) anchor is minimal and b) v-loop is as large as possible. Large as possible to the rear of the angler as opposed to the rod tip because when the fly is anchored out, or further from the caster - then the v-loop behind takes less space and so it can be said to become smaller.

Consistent anchor placement comes from repetition and practice. But it is through practice and repetition that I've come to realize that anchprs do not have to be placed exactly at the same spot in reference to the caster.

Vic it’s too bad you deleted what I believe to be your best post yet but I am glad you didn’t get banned as I would have missed your amusing takes on speycasting :wink2:

Ok so you say you like to put your anchor beside you with the largest D/V loop possible.....well I always thought the whole point of speycasting was to be able to fish in tight to the bank without having to worry about your backcast getting caught up :grin2:
Also as far as minimal anchor and beside you to behind you when you make the forward cast do you not think you are losing some energy? When you cast forward is your fly staying put or is it going back than forward.....thus introducing a certain amount of slack?
You also say that it’s fine if the anchor changes all the time, it’s fine as you’ve practiced this...how about this always make the anchor in front so there is no variable, minimal D/V loop behind and no slack created when pulling forward. There are usually no obstacles in front of us but most of the time there are behind us So why even worry about them and make the most efficient cast possible?:nerd:
Let’s look at a little video that started your to be frank a little irrational behavior towards me 0:)

Minimal D loop behind me anchor way in front and the forward loop is super tight and the line does go a ways :grin2:

https://vimeo.com/312660847

Here’s a picture too so you can get a good look at a minimal D loop, anchor way out in front and no line pulling back at me and clearly a nice tight loop about to go out :nerd:
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
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I think the three of you guys have a "Love/Hate Triangle" going on here ... or should I call it a "D" or "V" Loop ?? :hihi::hihi:


Mike
Oh Mike there you go stirring the pot >:)

Here’s some more good stuff on the subject from one of the worlds best at this game Travis Johnson :nerd:
 
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