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Discussion Starter #1
I pulled this out from another thread since it was going off- topic and deserves to be it's own thread. - GR8LAKES FLYER



GR8LAKESFLYER, what's your favorite DT (I'm curious about taper length) for trout spey?
 

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GR8LAKESFLYER, what's your favorite DT (I'm curious about taper length) for trout spey?
For my trout fishing, I use to use the Mastery DT with a front taper of 9ft, which I found usable, but was cumbersome with short casts.
I see that Cortland has a new Trout Boss DT with an aggressive 6ft front taper, which would load easier at short distances and still be able to roll cast to long distances. Of course, regular casts and spey casts could be utilized with this line too.
Rio has a new Light Line DT with a compound taper that sounds interesting, the last 13ft of the line has an 8ft step taper, then down to a 5ft front taper. They advertise it as loading in close with a gentle turnover with the compound step.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Cortland DT Trout Boss for this Trout two-hander.


Mike
 

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GR8LAKESFLYER, what's your favorite DT (I'm curious about taper length) for trout spey?
For my trout fishing, I use to use the Mastery DT with a front taper of 9ft, which I found usable, but was cumbersome with short casts.
I see that Cortland has a new Trout Boss DT with an aggressive 6ft front taper, which would load easier at short distances and still be able to roll cast to long distances. Of course, regular casts and spey casts could be utilized with this line too.
Rio has a new Light Line DT with a compound taper that sounds interesting, the last 13ft of the line has an 8ft step taper, then down to a 5ft front taper. They advertise it as loading in close with a gentle turnover with the compound step.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Cortland DT Trout Boss for this Trout two-hander.


Mike
I use the trout boss WF for single hand dry fly fishing. That and the 444 peach are my favorites
 

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I use the trout boss WF for single hand dry fly fishing. That and the 444 peach are my favorites
Yes, I’ve used the Cortland 444 peach and it was nice, but wore out quick, the 444SL wears better I find.
I seen the Trout Boss available in a WF taper, but most times on creeks I fish requires less than 20ft of line to cast. Not really benefiting from a WF taper. The DT is much better for short casts in my opinion and excellent for line control swinging soft hackles, which is 80% of my trout fishing.


Mike
 

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How many line sizes are you guys bumping up? 2, 3?
The rod is a 2/3 wt "spey-rated", Mr. Meiser told me it is the equivalent to a 5wt single hand.
Typically on my trout rods, I will drop back one line weight if I am lining with a DT.


Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Do you underline (with a DT) your SH rods to allow more line to be carried (for overhead casting I assume) without overloading the rod? What's the theory? I understand (in theory and personal experience) that both WF and DT (assuming front tapers are identical) lines are rated at X grains measured at the first 30' excluding any level tip.

The reason I ask this, is that many SH anglers that run DTs, for roll casting only, will upline by 1-3 line weights. Sometimes I do this myself. Depending on the distance I have to cover, I will line my rod accordingly.

I line my 3wt trout spey rod anywhere from a 5wt to a 7wt DT depending on how much line I want to carry past the rod tip. I'm still playing with lines. Trying to figure out what my ideal front taper length is for a short and light trout spey.
 

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The reason I ask this, is that many SH anglers that run DTs, for roll casting only, will upline by 1-3 line weights. Sometimes I do this myself. Depending on the distance I have to cover, I will line my rod accordingly.
I should mention that my single hand rods are full through action, the old Sage Graphite III RPL series. Some may consider this to be a "slow" action.
By relaxing my stroke, whether O/H casting, roll casting or single hand spey casting, I am able to load the rod enough with a DT that is one line size less. The uniform grain distribution of a DT is definitely a factor for loading. I prefer to be as stealthy as I can when hunting for trout and the lower line designation really helps surface disturbance.


Mike
 

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I should mention that my single hand rods are full through action, the old Sage Graphite III RPL series. Some may consider this to be a "slow" action.
By relaxing my stroke, whether O/H casting, roll casting or single hand spey casting, I am able to load the rod enough with a DT that is one line size less. The uniform grain distribution of a DT is definitely a factor for loading. I prefer to be as stealthy as I can when hunting for trout and the lower line designation really helps surface disturbance.


Mike


Do you underline (with a DT) your SH rods to allow more line to be carried (for overhead casting I assume) without overloading the rod? What's the theory? I understand (in theory and personal experience) that both WF and DT (assuming front tapers are identical) lines are rated at X grains measured at the first 30' excluding any level tip.

The reason I ask this, is that many SH anglers that run DTs, for roll casting only, will upline by 1-3 line weights. Sometimes I do this myself. Depending on the distance I have to cover, I will line my rod accordingly.

I line my 3wt trout spey rod anywhere from a 5wt to a 7wt DT depending on how much line I want to carry past the rod tip. I'm still playing with lines. Trying to figure out what my ideal front taper length is for a short and light trout spey.
I really enjoy those old RPLs and a few old GIII spey rods that I love

Haven't fished for trout in a long long time, or lighter outfit than 7 weigh for that matter, so I've only followed along this thread to this point. However now that the question on up or down-lining comes up I will offer that when I do use DTs it can be for both overhead and spey casts on then same day so it's the same line weight matched to the rod-weight. The most crucial thing I've noticed about casting DTs is to keep the anchor to a very minimum, d loop as large as possible, and... 180˚ out ( IOW "narrow train-tracks.") I'll never get tired of repeating it. That's what I do with DTs and it applies to WFs just as well.

The RPLs and old GIII spey rods are some of my favorites - really enjoy their action too.
 

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Correct Vic :)
Same line covering multiple situations, whether in close or far off. At longer distances, an over lined DT can wreak havoc on your rod and on the surface of the river. I find over lined DT’s to be a one trick pony.
I will say this, if a singles hand rod rating is designated as 3/4, like my old Sage, I line a DT as the lower number and the higher number for WF lines.

So I’ve been doing some research and found that Airflo has a “Bandit” line.
The front taper is 6.5ft and belly portion is uniform and 24ft long with a long 20ft rear taper. This is Airflo’s Trout Tactical line for wary trooots :smokin:
I’m thinking this is an excellent option for my trout two-hander :)


Mike
 

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Mike,
20 foot rear taper on a 5WF BTW. You might be familiar with Rio and SA's salmon/steelhead tapers: Those have roughly 13 to 20 feet back taper. That's their 6 -10 WF. The longest that I know of.

So - quite the back taper on the Airflo...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Mike, to be sure I'm reading you correctly...

With both SH and TH TROUT rods (to be clear I define a trout rod as one that loads effectively with a standard #5 line, 140 grains @ 30', or lower line weight), you'll underline by 1 line size when overhead or spey casting a DT, and you use a more relaxed casting stroke, somehow still loading the rod enough to cast at short and long distances.

So you would line your Meiser 2/3wt trout spey rod (equivalent to a 5wt in SH terms) with a DT4 which weighs only 120 grains @ 30'.

If my understanding is correct (so far), the only hard numbers that are missing is what you call short and long distances. Please give me the line lengths (past the rod tip) for what you call short and long casts.

You're making me feel like I've completely misunderstood how to line a TH rod with a DT.


As far as how/why I upline, I do this purposefully making a one-trick pony for bluelining... for very very short casts in very very tight quarters... fishing for brookies on tiny mountain streams. We use #5 or #6 line on #3 and #4 glass SH rods. The pics aren't the typical angling situation on these creeks... way too much casting room at this spot.

But I also upline my 11' 3wt trout spey rod similarly when fishing smaller (by TH standards) creeks for trout.
 

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Mike,
20 foot rear taper on a 5WF BTW. You might be familiar with Rio and SA's salmon/steelhead tapers: Those have roughly 13 to 20 feet back taper. That's their 6 -10 WF. The longest that I know of.

So - quite the back taper on the Airflo...
I did a double take when I read the specs and saw the line profile :



If needed, that rear taper should stabilize a long cast and help control the line on the drift.
Not sure if it will be the most stealthy line with that 6.5ft front taper, seems more aggressive than subtle. Airflo is advertising it as a stealthy line, maybe I'm missing something ... ??

I'm still leaning towards the Cortland Trout Boss for my single hander though :)


Mike
 

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Captcaveman,

I guess I am confusing the two together :eek:
For my single hand rods, I drop back or more so revert to the lower line rating of the single hand rod. So on my 9ft 3/4wt, I will use the "3" rating for my DT line.
Mr. Meiser has suggested the 10'6" 2/3 Trout two-hander is like a 5wt single hand rod rating. So I will try a 5 WF for now. If the rod reacts like I think it will, I would then line it with a 4 DT.
The reason I do that is I like to have a single line when chasing trout that can do everything. I encounter many different situations on the creeks and rivers I fish for trout. From closed, cramped pocket water to wide open glass like flats. I need a line that can cover all these situations. To over line a DT would make my time on the water not as enjoyable. Good for really short casts, but heavy and cumbersome for the rest of the water I enjoy fishing.
I do some nymphing, not as much as before, but mostly swing soft hackles and streamers and of course drift dries. Skittering stoneflies across some of my waters produce really decent Brookies and Browns.

Your photos show some cramped quarters!! Very picturesque I will add. We have tiny brooks like that too, not too far from my place that hold 6-8" brookies. Very plentiful and quite. Makes for an awesome day of hiking and fishing :)


Mike
 

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I did a double take when I read the specs and saw the line profile :



If needed, that rear taper should stabilize a long cast and help control the line on the drift.
Not sure if it will be the most stealthy line with that 6.5ft front taper, seems more aggressive than subtle. Airflo is advertising it as a stealthy line, maybe I'm missing something ... ??

I'm still leaning towards the Cortland Trout Boss for my single hander though :)


Mike
The Bandit is listed in the 2018 catalog but it doesn't list grain weights for SH lines the way it does for two-handed lines and heads. This particular WF might be a good candidate for underlying. I tend to prefer the lighter weight rating for a WF.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I suppose what was confusing me was that with a DT line, all SH rods I've casted have two happy line lengths.

One happy spot in close with a short rod stroke when only casting off the tip.

And one much farther out when casting with a longer stroke and deeper rod load... provided the angler is skilled enough to keep that longer length aerialised... and provided the line itself has enough weight (kinetic energy) to overcome wind resistance and completely turn over at this longer length.

When casting such light line weights, there is a point that, even though a caster is doing everything right, the line no longer has enough kinetic energy to turn over at distance without severely limiting fly size.

Remember were still spey casting here... At this point most casters add power to the forward cast (attempting to load the rod deep enough to boost kinetic energy). SH rod casters do it with a haul on the forward cast. Really skilled ones can do it by hauling on the anchoring stroke too, pre-loading the rod for the forward cast, keeping the forward loops tight and maximizing distance OR towing capacity (fly size).

TH casters don't have the luxury of a haul or two, so must upline a level-bellied DT little to get deeper rod load and more kinetic energy for turnover at distance without sacrificing much in towing capacity (fly size).

Light weight DTs with a very long taper (Rio's Trout LT, now discontinued) actually spey cast (on a trout spey TH rod) at distance much better (due to heavier line continually turning over lighter line), but fly size is limited due to line tip diameter.

Same principle (delta-ish taper) is found in "belly" lines for heavier TH rods.
 

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A shorter length of a heavier line can weigh as much as a lighter line at a longer length beyond the tip top.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
shorter length of a heavier line can weigh as much as a lighter line at a longer length beyond the tip top.

Fishon4evr, I am in 100% agreement with your statement.

I haven't underlined my trout spey rod with a DT yet. As soon as this [email protected]#$*&d wind quits blowing I'll go and try a Cortland Peach DT4 (level belly with an 8' front taper) on my trout spey rod and see what it does.

I expect it to be more difficult to cast the same amount of line than my Rio Trout LT DT5 (level belly with +/-29' continual front taper) just because of the Rio's weight distribution... perhaps I'll be surprised!

Hopefully I'll find that I already own another line that works well on my trout spey!
 

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Graphite new or old has little mass and is stiff, so need to be loaded in order to cast a line out near or far. Glass and bamboo, having more mass, are more forgiving with a wider range of lines, and are (in my opinion) nicer to use.

I have an, apparently desirable, SAGE III GFL 3wt 7'9" LL (light line) graphite SH wisp of a trout rod, which I admit to not using much. 3 or 4 wt DT lines are fine on the rod. I have a few other SAGE and various graphite fly rods, SH and DH, which are also gathering dust as I find that I reach for bamboo most of the time for various methods and species. With such fly rods there is no worrying and fussing about specific windows of lines which will work with them.

My favourite DT line to use: a mere green Phoenix 4 wt silk line made by Mike Peters in France, on a 4wt 6' SH F E Thomas taper, rod. It is fun to mini spey cast on small streams, or roll or overhead; being much thinner than plastic lines, silk falls like 'thistle down' on the surface, creating no disturbance in the air either, being darker and non flash. The thinner silk lines also cut through the air better, so surprisingly good casts are possible with little effort.

By way of contrast, cut a plastic DT in half and splice it to a running line and you will have, in effect, a very capable shootiing head with a longer front taper and of course two lines, as no one ever sees the reverse half of a DT line, for the most part. Allows for a smaller reel to be used, very useful in smaller sizes.

A single lift and haul (from a boat), thinking here of SH SAGE RPL 8wt., a large bass bug can be cast a very decent distance with a half DT 10wt. Most importantly for me, the casting stroke will be slower and less frantic than trying to keep a WF line going.

All my plastic lines I dye darker browns, whenever possible, and my rods are satin finish.. bamboo that is.

Malcolm
 
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