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For those who may have tried it...Is there a big difference between using a single hand 5wt trout rod with DT line vs a trout scandi line? Isn't the taper of a DT line similar to the taper of a trout scandi? Or is the scandi heavier to move a heavier/larger fly? Can all the spey casts be done with a DT line? You know newbie...
 

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A short scandi line is much easier to Spey cast with a single hand rod then a typical dt line. The sa scandi lite integrated is a great place to start if you are looking to try one out. It’s 20 feet long, and a tremendous line for soft hackles and small streamers. I’d recommend the 210 grains for your 5wt.
 

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Yes. The short answer is you can do Spey casts with any line on any rod. Even in the worst case scenario, which particular details might even depend on the person and their prior experience, it is not THAT much more difficult to do Spey casts. Certainly I have not found using a double taper to do them to be at all hard once you know how to do them on a more optimized line. As crocodile Dundee said, “you can live on it, but it tastes like s**t”. But In a lot of cases you might be after more than mere casting pleasure - for example you might find the DT to have a nicer or easier presentation on the water. Other times you may be chasing that elusive casting farfegnugen. Still other times you may want something easy to learn on and more forgiving.

A double taper is somewhat different than a typical “trout taper” - it depends on the particular line but “trout” tapers generally have a longer more delicate front taper, the kind people like for dry flies generally, and had a well defined head (unlike a double taper) usually 30-40ft. There is also a single hand Spey line made by Rio which is very similar to their classic “trout” taper Rio gold line but with a slightly beefier and heavier butt section to make Spey style casts a little easier. It is more like a tiny tweak from a regular trout taper than half way way to a compact style scandi such as the one mentioned above which is much shorter and beefier in the butt section. Because of its greater length the SH Spey line is just very different to cast.

The trades off when you are first learning are that a shorter head in almost every case means easier to cast and more forgiving initially. But the downside is if you only stay with short you may stop learning new things and more precise technique sooner. Still, it is hard to argue the point that using a line that helps make some sort of cast, any cast, is a good place to start.
 

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For those who may have tried it...Is there a big difference between using a single hand 5wt trout rod with DT line vs a trout scandi line? Isn't the taper of a DT line similar to the taper of a trout scandi? Or is the scandi heavier to move a heavier/larger fly? Can all the spey casts be done with a DT line? You know newbie...
Just my take on this. Here goes:
A "scandi-line"- whether integrated or not - is a "weight-forward" design, as opposed to a double taper and so what you're really asking is the differences between DTs, which have mass to pick up and cast throughout the entire length of line, and Weight Forward lines which don't have the mass throughout the entire length and must held at a point with enough mass (head/body) to "carry."

Looped heads (like majority of scandi heads out there) don't pass through guides without rattling that most casters don't care for it , use some length of running line beyond the tip-top and call it "over-hang." It is a hinge point - not the smoothest transition between head and running line. Integrated lines with back tapers exhibit a smoother transition into the running section and DT's eliminate this transition/hinge altogether. That's the other real difference. It really isn't easier to cast a WF, or harder with a DT, the difference is just the transition between head and running line, or lack thereof in case of DTs.

A "trout" WF can be up to a 6 weigh. That's just my experience with trout, but I know others will say differently. A trout taper can be as powerful as a nymphing or mousing taper or as delicate a dry fly taper.

Scandi tapers are very generally-speaking a WF with continuous front taper, as opposed to nymphing/mousing-tapers for example.
DTs are not all the same. Most have level bellies and there are some with compound-bellies/ compound tapers, the weight-point's are at 30 feet from the tip, but will be heavier overall. A DT is great all around overhead/spey line at different holding points for the entire length of line.
 

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This totally reflects my own very limited experience, but for the most part when people (and fly line companies) talk about a “trout taper” I have found they tend to mean not simply “trout weight” but a type of taper, and that is usually what some people would associate with a modern dry fly line. But I’m %100 sure the words “trout” and “taper” have been used together in other ways. I know a DT is widely liked as a dry fly line!

This is what the single hand Spey line looks like, which actually is very different than a Rio gold, so I was wrong. In the end it is more like a scandi than I gave it credit for I guess. Also the thinning taper might explain why I found the front end of one sinking more easily than I would have liked with dry flies last week! Guess you really can’t do it all perfectly with one line.
381512
 

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I was under the impression that a DT and a weight forward are the same for a line class for the first 30' or so. A scandi whether integrated or not is all taper from back to front. Some have some rear taper. Have I been lied to?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
This totally reflects my own very limited experience, but for the most part when people (and fly line companies) talk about a “trout taper” I have found they tend to mean not simply “trout weight” but a type of taper, and that is usually what some people would associate with a modern dry fly line. But in I’m %100 sure the words “trout” and “taper” have been used together in other ways. I know a DT is widely liked as a dry fly line!

This is what the single hand Spey line looks like, which actually is very different than a Rio gold, so I was wrong. In the end it is more like a scandi than I gave it credit for I guess. Also the thinning taper might explain why I found the front end of one sinking more easily than I would have liked with dry flies last week! Guess you really can’t do it all perfectly with one line.
View attachment 381512
Have you fished the elite SH spey? It looks like what I might be after. My trout fishing is 90% dry fly and 10% I strip a cone head wooly bugger and I'm using a generic WF 5wt line. I guess what I'm looking for is what my WF line already provides and some single hand spey casting ability as extra tools in my toolbox. I can for example snake roll my WF line but I wonder if there is a better line that can give me the WF attributes I'm used to plus spey castable?
 

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This totally reflects my own very limited experience, but for the most part when people (and fly line companies) talk about a “trout taper” I have found they tend to mean not simply “trout weight” but a type of taper, and that is usually what some people would associate with a modern dry fly line. But in I’m %100 sure the words “trout” and “taper” have been used together in other ways. I know a DT is widely liked as a dry fly line!

This is what the single hand Spey line looks like, which actually is very different than a Rio gold, so I was wrong. In the end it is more like a scandi than I gave it credit for I guess. Also the thinning taper might explain why I found the front end of one sinking more easily than I would have liked with dry flies last week! Guess you really can’t do it all perfectly with one line.
View attachment 381512
I was under the impression that a DT and a weight forward are the same for a line class for the first 30' or so. A scandi whether integrated or not is all taper from back to front. Some have some rear taper. Have I been lied to?
What's a "trout taper" if not a continuous front taper?
Could it look like Nymph-taper? Maybe a mousing taper? I know a lot of guys say "dry lines" meaning floating lines, and DTs too, not necessarily dry-flies though.

Yes, weight points for DTs are 30 feet from tip like I posted. Same as with WF lines: 30 feet from tip. Over-all ( I should clarify total length and weight) DT,s will be heavier. More mass. Scandi-tapers are Weight Forward tapers. Very different meaning than to say continuous forward/front taper.
 

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Have you fished the elite SH spey? It looks like what I might be after. My trout fishing is 90% dry fly and 10% I strip a cone head wooly bugger and I'm using a generic WF 5wt line. I guess what I'm looking for is what my WF line already provides and some single hand spey casting ability as extra tools in my toolbox. I can for example snake roll my WF line but I wonder if there is a better line that can give me the WF attributes I'm used to plus spey castable?
A line, as in the same line, will do overhead casts and spey casts and there really is no need to change to a heavier line, or line labeled "spey" to do spey casts. Distance is negligible.
 

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For those who may have tried it...Is there a big difference between using a single hand 5wt trout rod with DT line vs a trout scandi line? Isn't the taper of a DT line similar to the taper of a trout scandi? Or is the scandi heavier to move a heavier/larger fly? Can all the spey casts be done with a DT line? You know newbie...
I use a variety of single hand fly rods, from 6 foot 2/3 wts. to vintage English and Scottish 10 and 11 footers, 5 to 8 wt., that were popular for loch and dapping angling, or Tay River harling for salmon. I use DT or TT taper silk and Wulff lines with these cane and slower or softer action parabolic graphite or glass rods. They can all be over head or rolled and spey cast and perform a number of presentations. My fav is a sidearm roll or spey cast that can slip a dry fly under an over hanging branch or grass above, below, or across stream from you. Fish out the dead drift and swing the fly away from any overhead branches and be alert for a grab on the hang down or dangle as predatory trout, steelies and salmon will be attracted to your riffling dry fly.
Regards from the Restigouche....Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
A line, as in the same line, will do overhead casts and spey casts and there really is no need to change to a heavier line, or line labeled "spey" to do spey casts. Distance is negligible.
Thanks! I'm too new to know any better. I have to say my 1st time out with a skagit head on 2 handed rod was transformative. It was like I stepped into a whole new world and I like it!
 

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Have you fished the elite SH spey? It looks like what I might be after. My trout fishing is 90% dry fly and 10% I strip a cone head wooly bugger and I'm using a generic WF 5wt line. I guess what I'm looking for is what my WF line already provides and some single hand spey casting ability as extra tools in my toolbox. I can for example snake roll my WF line but I wonder if there is a better line that can give me the WF attributes I'm used to plus spey castable?
TBH, I have extensively fished the original SHS. The Elite “version” (whose picture I grabbed) seems to have exactly the same dimensions so I’m not %100 sure what the difference is, but from the Rio blurb it seem likely it is another of those “next gen core” things like the in-touch thing a few years back, so probably not different at all. I have used them swinging and for dry flies with small dries, and they were wonderful for both. They also make a really cool 3D version that should be great for soft hackles and the like. I have cast those and fished them a little in the Fall River here in NorCal, but not as much. A week or so a friend and I did some salmon dry fly fishing - so with pretty huge flies, think foam grasshopper sized, and I did notice the thin front end frequently getting dragged under the surface. Possibly a regular problem with that application, a manifest lack of skill on my part, or maybe also a line that needed to be cleaner. Using a longer leader helped but it was still an issue.

They are pretty easy to Spey cast. But because of the typical head to SH rod length ratio it is mostly singles and snake rolls. But they really do double as a “regular” trout line and so great if you plan to mix things up. Rio makes them to 8wt SH rated. I’ve used them on some switch and Spey rods including up to a 13’ 5wt. Kind of like an extra delicate scandi on those.

The SHS was designed, at least partially, by Simon Gaweswoth and it conforms perfectly to the viewpoint expressed in his book on single hand Spey casting. Namely that it can be a fusion of Spey casting with other single hand applications and casts, with hauls worked there as well, rather than merely a platform for launching micro-skagit heads. Actually sounds very much like what you are talking about.

I think the catch-all fudge factor in all of these is the length of the continuous front taper, which can vary from really short for some DT lines, to quite long for others.
 
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