[Klem]

Response to Juro’s clarification of length of line to be cast equals the length of stroke.

Let’s go back to overhead casting. As you increase line length, you must increase the length of your casting stroke (casting arc). We know that the rod-tip must start slowly and gradually build acceleration with an expediential speed at the very end to a stop. The shorter the line, the less casting arc is needed to keep the rod-tip and line plane in plane and moving forwards; a shorter pause for the line to straighten out in back; and, less tip acceleration just before the stop. Cast 30’ of line and then 105’ of line, the Casting arc changes, the rod-tip acceleration and the stop become more complete

CRICTICAL THINKING TIME: Should a two-handed rod be any different? The above is the basis of my statement --- Short line equals shorter cast length (arc). Now some confusion in casting arc comes in. Yes, a person can have what appears to be a long stroke with a short belly but in reality the acceleration is relative short. The physics of fly-casting cannot be change only disguised!!! Klem

Side note to Juro:
Thanks for your help with the long stroke at High Bridge. Now to consistently long stroke. I did struggle adapting my medium stroke style to the underhand method. Aaron worked with me for long time. I finally made some progress. Being able to do ALL styles with skills and style knowledge is a goal of mine. Preparing for the THCI is a great learning experience, teaching is a great learning tool, and the friendships gathered through the sport is rewarding.

 

[Rick J]

Hi Klem- I agree only to a point with what you are saying. I agree that you may need a bit longer stroke for a long line but there really are two styles of casting - short stroke and long stroke as I covered in the previous post where this discussion began. To say that you are not accelerating through the length of the casting stroke, no matter the length does not seem right. I hate the term power application as all fly casting is is an acceleration to a stop. You can have a very short stroke if you accelerate quickly and stop dead and you can have a much longer stroke if you accelerate more slowly but still stop dead. In single handed casting I would point to Steve and Tim R as examples of short stroke casters and Lefty as a long stroke caster. But you can cast any length of line with either a short style or long style casting stroke. I can cast 90 feet of line with a casting stroke no longer than 18 inches or so. I can also cast 90 feet with a stroke that covers 3 or 4 feet or better.

 

[Klem]

Will compare 30' to 90' cast

Rick, can you make a short stroke with a long line and a full flex rod? Can you make a long stroke with a short head with and a very fast rod? It seems to me that equipment choice has alot to do with a given style. The Rajeff boys use very fast tip rods. Give them soft rods and the casting arc will change.
Slight acceleration through the motion has to happen or you get the preverbal tailing loop. What I'm saying is the the real portion of the casting arc is the expediential acceleration before the stop. Yes you can make a short stroke cast longer but there is a waste of effort and the cast becomes more inefficient. What I'm working through now is the most efficient use of applied energy to make a cast in a fishing situation. Ease of casting is important to a long day on the water.
Rick, I'm going out to my empty lot next door and try a 90' cast with a rod-tip travel of 18" or so and a 30' cast with a long stroke with my tip flex 5wt 9' rod and a long weight forward line. I will report bact to my findings.

 

[Rick J]

Hi Klem - you just added a new element and that is rod action. I agree rod action has alot to do with what casting stroke works best. You can't use a short stroke method very easily with a full flex rod but if we use a medium to medium fast action ( which matches the majority of rod actions) I hold to what I am saying. And I did not say rod tip path, I said hand travel when I talked about an 18 inch stroke vs a 3 to 4 foot stroke. I can make the rod tip travel much differently in a 18" hand stroke by the amount of acceleration I apply and how hard I stop. So I guess I will agree that you need a longer rod tip travel for longer line but I am saying I can accomplish this with pretty much the same hand stroke - it is just how fast you move the rod and how quickly you stop it. I might agree that you don't need a long stroke with a short line but some folks just have this style. As I mentioned in one of my original posts I believe past readings indicate that River Addict has a relatively long stroke though he uses a short skagit line whereas others use a much shorter underhand style cast to accomplish the same thing. Neither is right or wrong - just different methods. I believe RA's rods of choice are realtively full flex which lends to a longer, slower casting style. Those using a very short stroke likely favor a faster action rod.

 

[Klem]

Misread 18"

I was athinking rod tip not hand. Sorry, Will try with hand movement in mind. Klem

 

[t_richerzhagen]

Ed Ward

uses fairly soft rods (Sage 7136) and has a rather long casting stroke for his Skagit casting.

 

[Rick J]

When I talk about hand travel, for a short stroke one would stop the back cast with the hand opposite the ear. Some short stroke casters drift after the stop from a little to a lot - this allows a bit longer forward acceleration that can make up for timing screw ups but if your timing is spot on you likely don't need to drift much at all. The forward stroke is just lowering from the shoulder - so the elbow and hand pull down with the elbow remaining bent at around 45 degrees. The hand stops just below eye level. So hand travel is very short. With a two handed rod, you would get in this position if you were to pull the butt of the rod with your lower hand to the belt

A long stroke caster such as Lefty does not stop on the back cast and drift. He accelerates back until the arm is extended back as far as it will reach (for the lonest casts) then stops. On the forward cast, he accelerates until the arm is straight out in front and stops. With a two handed rod the arm would be extended out and the butt would be up closer to the chest.

I believe you could use either of these casts for both a short an long line

 

[juro]

length of line to be cast equals the length of stroke

The pleasure was all mine Klem; you throw a beautiful Spey cast.

The reason I asked had more to do with wording than anything else. The length of the stroke can not equal the line being cast, of course - I was taking the quote much too literally. I see now that you meant 'length of line to be cast corresponds to the length of the stroke' or perhaps better said as 'the length of the stroke corresponds to the length of the line being cast'.

In touch and go Spey casting and overhead casting there is a lot of truth in the correspondence between longer stroke and longer line, no doubt. But as people pointed out one can cast a short line with a long stroke and a long line with a short stroke depending on a number of factors like rod stiffness, casting technique, line design, rod/line matchup, sustained anchor verses momentary anchor and probably a whole list of other factors.

Good point by Ted about Ed's techinque with the sustained load and longer stroke with a short line. I have a renewed interest in Skagit casting since Speydays and have been practicing the technique. I am surprised by the energy that can be generated through the sustained load and the ratio of backcast to cast distance is phenomenal. The force that 'pops' outward and forward from the rod when a perry poke is done right surprises the crap out of me, it seems almost un-natural. Tips are carried like they are not even there, in fact they seem to aid the trajectory. Ed the Jedi Skagit Master, I am enlightened. But I believe this is not so much a matter of stroke length as it is a unique way to employ the physics of rod loading and unloading, I think. I'll tell you later when I understand it, right now I am still getting off on it when it happens

Different strokes for sure, but speaking for myself it's not as comfortable to cast a long belly line with a short stroke; and it's not as comfortable to use too long of a stroke for a short line.

For the love of long belly lines...
The long belly offers the opportunity to extend the path of acceleration (POA) and provides a huge amount of feedback for my mind to process in order to ensure that the cast is well-aligned and well-formed; more than any other type of line or cast. It's like throwing a very long javelin, you can't help but feel the path, and you don't have to rush it as it has it's own momentum - I love that about long belly / long stroke combinations. I crave it. Why in the world would I want to hurry that feel-good aspect of a long belly line with a stiff rod and a short stroke? Give me a long stroke and a rod with a matching action anyday when the fishing calls for it.

But all that makes no sense when a super-efficient laser loop can give you all the coverage you need with a Scandinavian style or shorter spey line, tips, big flies, limited space and a short stroke. Too long a casting stroke with a short line makes me pull the anchor or deflect open the loop. A short, bottomhand heavy stroke is a perfect match for shorter lines, just so efficient (except for all that stripping).

In the end, as folks have said over and over, it depends on the caster's technique, fishing application and preferences. I think you're right though, in general the length of the stroke (in touch and go & overhead casting) corresponds to the length of the line being cast, IMHO.