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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All

I have a question;

Shooting Line:

In single hand casting, you make the forward cast, stop the rod,
as the loop is formed, you release the line.

In spey casting do you release the line at the same time, or do you delay this release because of the anchor and "D" Loop ?
What would be the advantage of the delay, if any?
Does the weight of the line give you this option to release at any point during the formation of the loop?

Thanks Rick
 

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My .02 cents only on timing of the 'release.'

I wait until the line is WELL into it's forward cast before I loose my finger grip on the shooting loops. Idea being that as the line straigtens out, it will - has the energy - pull the shoot line after it.
fae
 

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Pullin' Thread
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I hadn't thought about this; however, since you posted this question it got me thinking about what I do. I release the line for the "shoot" at the point where the line just leaves the water. Sooner than this and the cast is killed by the anchor; later and the line sort of dies from the release of the running line.

Keep in mind that by releasing the running line at the point where the line just leaves the water is equivalent to the release of the line when the loop is formed with the single-hand overhead cast.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi

Fytyer:
That's and interesting way of looking at it, I've only thought of the rod tip (as in over-head casting), not the release of the anchor. On any of your cast's do you start the forward stroke before the anchor touches down?
Dana, when teaching me the Grant Switch had me coming forward before the anchor was in place, in fact , the line/leader only just kissed the water for a split second. The Switch cast has a ton of energy, I believe with the Switch, you could shoot as soon as the rod tip stop's (your thought's).
Is it possible that the timing of the shoot, might change with the amount of line your casting?
It would be interesting to see if different cast's had optimal points within the cast to shoot, most of the cast's have different anchor points (this might delay the shooting of the line?) or do all cast become the same at the point of anchor release?
Lot's of Question !!
Thanks
Rick
 

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Line release when shooting

Rick-
A good point; it made me rethink the process.

Relative to single handed line shoot timing, I release the spey line sooner than with a single hand rod.

Flytyer-brilliant!

Bob
 

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For both single and double handers I release the instant after I stop the power stroke. This is the point when there is maximum acceleration and bend in the rod and the line should be traveling at its fastest rate. Can't say I am looking at where my grip is on the water at this point. When the timing is on, it flies and when it is not, it sorta just flutters!!!
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Interesting discussion - I guess I never really think about it actively, the line has a mind of it's own and pulls the running line on it's journey behind the head.

My answer FWIW would be "I let go when the line tells me to".
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Rick,

To answer your question, yes, I start my forward motion before the anchor hits the water on the single spey and the extra long belly lines like the GrandSpey or XLT when casting over 75 feet. In fact, the more belly our the rod, the more I start to move the rod forward before the anchor hits the water and the final power stroke is applied.

However, this does not change when I release running line for shooting it. The running line is still released as soon as the anchor leaves the water.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Guy's
When instructing a student. What would you say would be the proper way to explain the shooting of line with a Spey type cast?
Thanks Rick
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Ahh, I see the wisdom in your ways Rick. As I re-read the question there is a lot more to it. I was remiss in thinking it was a simple question!

Although I may not have a great comment toward your excellent question, it's certainly important to note the following:

- that distinct moment of complete contention between the forward pushing wedge (the spey cast) and the resisting anchor on the water is critical in amplifying the load in the rod for a strong cast. This is analogous to a haul in single handed casting in that it takes what is currently in the rod for load and emphasizes it just before the moment of release, like a person on a trampoline at the point of deepest descent into the springy material. As the trampoliner flies upward from the compression, the force is fully directed and released. Certainly any lightening of the hands prior to this moment just after full "compression" would be disastrous to the cast.

- a lack of easing of the hands is just as disastrous, once the force is flying forward resistance affects distance dramatically. For instance leaving the running line loose in the water tension kills distance shooting if one tries it. Conversely stripping baskets make shooting line a breeze on the other end of the spectrum. In Spey a good coiling method is absolutely critical to shooting line and a critical element for instructors to teach.

So in essence, what I am saying is this:

1) the time to release is when the force is fully directed and going forward just after the moment of full compression (conflict between the forward moving wedge and the anchor's grip). I would use analogies of slingshots, trampolines and catapaults as well as the double haul to reinforce this when teaching. If I could find a learning aid at the toy store I would employ it.

2) the management of line and release in the fingers is equally important and is inseperable from the act of teaching how to shoot line with a spey cast.

Juro
 

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Speyshop's Speybum
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SHOOTING

I keep the shooting part of the casting for last and I very rarely have to do much.
I just simply say shoot the line when you feel the rod load.
They will soon get the drift.
Works great if you have on rod set up with either a short belly line or a head system
Once they feel confortable with the instruction line and shooting. Let them play with the head system and watch their eyes come alive.
:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Guy's

Great answers.

Would anyone like to take a crack at sumarizing the process of shooting Line with a spey rod, using what we've discussed above.
Might be easiest to use a Switch Cast
Start with working out 5-6 lengths of line, etc.

Juro I like your analogy, Since you brought it up, lets look at the next point of shooting, The Grip and how important it is in this process. How would you teach and explain the grip up to the point of releasing the line? The amount of pressure that is applied to the rod during the cast is important (as you mentioned), What relationship if any, has the grip on releasing bend (load) from the rod during the cast or at the point when the rod is stopped? Should the applied pressure change in the grip to assist in loading the rod or is it needed?
Thanks
The Student
Rick
 

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I think you guys are over-analyzing this thing! When double hauling with a single hander, you carry the haul through to the hand/rod stop and you release the line to shoot. You are not looking behind you to see what the line is doing at this instant. If your timing of the back cast and forward cast are right, you will develop maximum loading of the rod at this point and the line shoots out there. If your timing is off some, the line will not shoot as far, but releasing the line earlier or later will not help the poor timing of the cast.

On a double hander, I see no reason why you should not release at the same instant - that point when your hand stops the rod. That time is constant. The point that the line sticks or unsticks is not, depending on the timing variables of the cast.

If teaching beginners, you need to keep things as simple as possible so why try to tie it to what the line stick is doing any more than you would try to tie the release time on a single hander to what the back cast is doing?
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Hi Rick,

Agreed, simple is good but to Rick W's point there's certainly no harm in digging deeper into these topics especially here in this forum IMHO.

Per your comments about turning around, although I frequently use a visual queue for my anchor thru the window between my bottom hand and my top arm's elbow (peeking under the raised rod handle) but the anchor is usually in front and out to the casting side with any "training" length line so I never have to turn around if I wanted to see the anchor (?)

When teaching I think visual re-inforcement for the anchor is quite useful for three reasons: (1) to help establish placement of the anchor for the caster (2) to train the caster to maintain a shallow angle with the bottom of the d-loop to get a light kiss on the water, and (3) the timing of the touch-down as a queue for starting the forward stroke unless casting extended belly lines which require a headstart - but certainly that doesn't apply since we're trying to keep things simple here.

To the contrary, I think talking about the function of the anchor and the way it works against the forward stroke to reach maximum load in the rod is a healthy and useful training discussion.

But when to let it go? I might suggest getting the cast right in this case and then say "let the line tell you when to open your fingers", per my first reply.

.02
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Like Speybum, I don't get into a discussion or description of the anchor and why it is needed with beginners. I simply start with the switch cast and have the student "hesitate" and let the line land on the water to load the rod followed immediately by the forward spey.

After the newbie is able to make fairly consistent switch casts with a fixed length of line (around 50 to 55 feet), I then move on to the double spey because it is far more forgiving than a single spey and easier to explain than the Snap-T.

Again like Aaron, I don't talk about shooting line at all. I simply tell the newbie to play around with having another 12, 15, 20 feet of line added to the cast by holding the line with his/her fingers and releasing it when it feels like the rod is loaded.

I would never get into an explaination of why it works or when the extra line should be released or shot into the cast. Doing so only confuses the newbie. And as Aaron said, their eyes just sparkle and they come alive when they see that they can add another 15 or so feet to a cast. Such discussions are fine for experienced casters to analyze their casting; however, they don't lend anything useful to a new spey caster.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi All
Like all of you, I don't disagree with the fact that too much info is not helpful to a beginner !

Last week I gave a single hand casting lesson to a gentlemen of 83 years, he has worked with a number of teachers (some big names). Jack lost most of his sight in his right eye earlie in life (he's a right hand caster). He's spent many years Atlantic Salmon fishing, but has always had problems with the double haul (slack in the haul and timing). I watched and analized Jack for a few moments, then asked him if anyone has ever talked to him about his stance, he said NO!. We changed his stance so he could see his back cast, because of this, his haul and timing improve 100%. A simple trick, that I would not have thought about, had it not been for the fact that when I'm learning I ask a lot's of question's
I'm a student of casting asking Question's !
Thanks Rick
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Good idea to stay away from shooting line when instructing a beginner, but to avoid talking about the anchor? I'm afraid that would leave a big hole in the sequence, it's as important as all it's peers in the lift, sweep->stop, ______, and stroke.

With all due respect a simple hesitation without discussing the importance of the shallow angle and lightness of the kiss and timing of the stroke relative to it would result in a high percentage of casts having the rug pulled out from under it (too early) or casting a ten pound anchor (too late).

I enjoyed discussing this topic Rick, thanks for asking. I have some errands to run that take me past a river and so since I am all talked out on this topic I am going to cast for a couple hours today and not think about it, just let it flow.

- signing off
 

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Far be it from me to suggest that this post is not warranted!! I enjoy all these discussions as much as the next guy. My point is if the question is when do you release to shoot line, I believe it is at the end of the power application. Asking what impacts the line stick has on shooting line is a different question. Rick had asked at one point what governs when you release the line to shoot and how would you explain it to someone and I do not believe it is tied to line stick. But I am all in favor of discussing how this might relate to what the line is doing at the time you shoot the line. I in no way meant to shut down the discussion, just putting in my .02 that it would be very difficult when casting to think about when to release line based on line stick as opposed to when the rod is fully loaded at the end of the power application.
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Juro,

Instructing beginners with the "sweep, stop, stroke" automatically crates an anchor without the need to confuse the new caster with an explaination of anchor and its purpose. This is precisely why I don't mentiion it to a newbie.

The reason I avoid teaching the single spey to a newbie is becasuse s/he has not learned how to position line effectively cast after cast. The double spey and Snap-T are far easier to teach a newbie and get him/her casting properly because they eliminate the need to get precise line placement on a single stroke of the rod as in the single spey.
 
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