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#&%*@^# Caster
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Saw this brought up in reference to a recent rod and thought I would bounce a problem I am having off you all.

So I am in the midst of restructuring my casting style from a classic top hand power application to more of a compact stroke utilizing somewhat equal power from my top and bottom hand.

I am finding with the faster rods keeping my hands in closer to my body really helps me bring more bottom hand in play thus making loading the faster rods more deeply into the butt easier. I am able to exert a lot more push/pull on the rod then when using strictly top hand.

However I have been having a problem lately with a deflection to the right side (right hand up) with the secondary loop. Never thought a secondary loop was a bad thing as long as it is inline with your cast. Mine is not. When I go left hand up the problem goes away so I am leaning towards this being a miss application of power since I do not hit the rod as hard on the forward stroke with my off hand up. My loops are not as tight on the left side but that is another story.

I defintely know it aint the rod as I can hand it to a good caster and that problem does not show up.

So what it is? Power application? Rod plane screwed up?

Will be happy to show you in person at the Kaufman spey days :Eyecrazy:

-sean
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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Discussion Starter #2
When reffering to the secondary loop it is the wave created in your line afer the rod is finished unloading and is recoiling back. You can look in Danas videos and see the little wave in the line that follows the forward loop.

-sean
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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As far as I know shock dimple is interchangeable with secondary loop..I think.Someone feel free to correct me.

I am glad the redesign is going to come with a encylcopedia function so we can start nailing these terms down. :smokin:

-sean
 

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you beat me !!!!!

rphelps said:
Sean,

If I am following you correctly, I went through a very similar problem when starting to use the lower hand more. Two suggestions:

1. Make sure that you are just not pulling the underhand straight into the chest, but ensure that you come down with that hand during the start of the power application and then pull in with that hand.

2. While I thought for a while that I was really using just the lower hand for the power application and stop, it was pointed out to me that I was still using a lot of upper hand. I was told to just grasp the rod on the upper hand with two fingers very lightly to just help steer the rod and use lower hand for the power application and stop. I worked on this for a while and things started going much better.

In truth, I believe that even in underhand casting, there is some application of power in the upper hand, but much less than I thought.

Hope this helps,

RPhelps ;)



that is what i was going to say :smokin: well put i hope he under stands what you are saying not seeing what you are saying may be hard for him to get any ways good luck and tight lines brownie1013 <'}}}}>~~~<
 

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Medium stroke

Sean, you saw the light. A medium stroker is born. Ray hit the nail on the head for the medium stroke style. The bottom hand pulls down until the rod hits the noon position THEN the bottom hand pulls back to the stomach. This is when the push/pull effect happens. The top hand continues its straight line path to the stop position with enough applied energy to keep the tracking in line. The important point is the bottom hand pulls more force than the top hand during the push/pull phase of your stroke. Understanding the stop position is critical along with stopping the butt of the rod to transfer energy to line. The stop position should be: Top hand elbow is bent at 45 degrees and the thumb of your top hand is pointed to 10-10:30ish. From the key position to the stop position the upper hand travels in a slight decline angle. To accomplish this think of your elbow dropping slightly (this makes your shoulder the pivot point and makes the shoulder muscles contribute to the initial forward movement). When the rod travels to the noon position the elbow pivots slightly to continue the thumb on its straight line path to the stop position as the bottom hand pulls towards the belly botton. Think "stop-the-butt" of the rod with your bottom hand and your loop will be super charged with no shock waves. (Ray eluded to stopping the rod with bottom hand)

The shock wave is to much power from either the bottom or the top hand. As you know, the smooth application of power is paramount. Try backing off the power during the push/pull time with first the top hand and then the bottom hand. I went through this same phase and to my surprise I found out that, as long as I was applying more power to the bottom hand than the top hand, I could cast with relative easy power application.

If the secondary loop is forming off to the side, then a tracking issue has been introduces along with to much power. Probably caused by one or both hands moving out of plane during the forward cast. I bet your set-up /anchor is OK so that shouldn't be the cause. Good luck and hope this helps, Klem
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Deflection in the lower leg of the loop is caused by a couple of things: (a) power happenin' where stoppage should be and (b) the angle of the rod's deflection upon release. This could be a result of stroke, but also the line/rod design match-up.

Making sure the bottom hand does not rise any higher than the upper arm's elbow at the end of the d-loop, try gathering up the "load" in the blank back a little further using an up-drift so you can stop sharper (earlier).

Then to make sure you can drive it for distance, manage the angle that the rod lets the line fly to a more horizontal forward angle (e.g. throwing a frizbee with a stick) rather than a downward direction (e.g. cutting wood).

I am certainly no more than a student of Scandinavian style casting (a work in progress for me as a modern/traditional style caster). However when we first cast together on the Sauk I was very much a short stroke Skagit head caster and have challenged myself to spend some time re-familiarizing with the nuances of that style as the opportunities arise now that I understand what I am doing, or not doing much more clearly.

I'm look forward to Spey Days!
 

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Sean

Not to over simplify things but try keeping your bottom hand or if you prefer butt of rod close to the center line of your body ( middle of chest). This should help with keeping the rod tip tracking straight, you can apply more bottom hand if you want but might find you won't have to. Lots of good info in the other posts, this trick seemed to cure that problem for me awhile back.
 

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Second loop...

If I understand your problem correctly, you may be over-rotating too far around in back of yourself with your D-loop stroke, which sets you up to come wide and around in order to line up for the casting stroke, which will then throw an "outside wowee" into the line. Have someone watch and see where your D-loop is - if it ends up in back of your head instead of off the right shoulder, then that is probably the problem.
 

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Over rotating

Ed, if Sean was over rotating on the d-loop formation wouldn't the result show up in a cross tail as well as the right shock thing? It seems to me, a humble THCI student, that the rod tip plane, hand plane and line plane with accessive power at the stop is the culprit. After re-reading Sean first post, I realize my initial assessment was for more of the straigth line shock. Maybe the root cause is: tip direction momentum. Without seeing the total casting stroke we all are blind men grasping the hammer to saw. Klem, a student trying to prepare for the big THCI and learning as I gooooo.....
 

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Shock dimple

Sean I went through the exact same thing as you have described, the solution for me was to bring the upper hand down the handle about four inches when using my dominent hand. With my hand in its normal position I was applying to much power, I just kept sliding my hand down the handle till I got the right amount of power and the problem went away. After I got used to the new casting stroke I went back to my normal grip but I do slide the upperhand down sometimes when testing different rod and line combinations. It was an easy fix for me hopefully yours will be just as simple.


Ian
 

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Schock waves or second loop and 'underhand' technique

First of all my excuses for my poor Englisch:
From a distance and not being able to watch you casting its alway difficult to come up with a sollution. Therefor I would like to make a more general comment on this issue.

First of all, most shock waves or any disturbance in an outrolling flyline is in many cases the result of applying to much and to aggressive power with the bottum hand. Try to focus on being smooth with your bottom hand and focus on a movement with increasing speed instead of increasing power.

Seconly, make a good stop moment by ending your bottom hand against you body and make a follow trough moment with your upper hand through the stop moment. I know this sounds a bit odd, but try to throw a loop through your stop moment. It will add to a smooth unloading of the rod and thats where you are looking for. So the moment you bottem hand hits you body (upper hips/stomach where ever you want it to stop), the upper hand makes an short stop moment and an imediate follow throw moment. Whatch a baseball pitcher throw a ball, they also have a kind of stop moment where the ball leaves the hand and then they follow through with their body .
 

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Secondary Loop

Sean,
A secondary loop to me means some sort of shock wave in the
line upon delivery. There are a number of causes that will lead to
sign or shock waves. I believe the biggest culprit is punching the rod
and driving the tip over. There is a tendency for most of us to hurry
the delivery cast, especially when we are trying to get more distance.
I'm no exception! I think the best remedy is to slow everything down
and maybe soften the grip a bit. I know when I over grip the rod I
loose the ability to "feel" the cast. With a softer grip, the rod will tell
you when it's loaded and ready to cast.
Stan
 

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Speyshop's Speybum
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Secondary loop Hmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!

Notes and observations
I M H O
Where and what type of Secondary loop are you developing.
Is it kicking out to the sides or is it going up and down.

If it left or right you are imparting it with the rod tip; the line will fallow the rod tip.
Work at keep the rod butt in the center of you body and try to keep the in applying power smoothly while keep the rod moving in a strait line.

The up and down Secondary loop are another story

We run into this many times while developing new rods or lines.

Some rods have a inherent Secondary loop the severity depends on how smoothly you applied power and how the power is applied.

The secondary loop has many different effects and may be cause by many different things.

I what part of the line dose in occurs will usually tell you where the problem results from.

Front half (nearest the fly) of the loop usually is defined as rod or line problem. (Here to there is exceptions) this may be so sever that it will disrupt the flow of energy and cause the line to turn over improperly.

Second Half of the line is a casting problem..

Did you just start doing this or was it there all the time and you have just noticed it.?

What lines are you using?

It may be nonexistent in short belly line and just loom up to haunt you with a long belly line.
The chances are very great you will run into this problem when you are transitioning casters from short, to medium belly, to long and extreme belly lines.

What did not show up on the short usually show up big time on the longer lines.

This is usually a power application problem.

In my observation it seems to plague those caster that try to stop the rod with the lower hand instead of the upper. (either is fine with me)

Those who can cast all day without getting a hearing crack of the line even with you a fly or piece of yarn on the end of the leader have this problem.

My $.02 worth
:smokin:
 

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"A picture is worth. . ." Dana's videos have been so helpful in my evolution to the underhand stroke, esp. now that I have discovered the "pause" feature. The key to me has been the emphasis on the vertical drop of the hands during the forward stroke: in a pure situation, if the rod tip moves only forward during the stroke it is physically impossible to stop the secondary bounce of the tip at the stop; on the other hand, if the rod, more in a near vertical position in the underhand stroke at the start of the forward stroke, is dropped vertically into the stop, the secondary bounce is very significantly minimized. Look specifically at the Goran Anderson video clip, and at the other caster(Stavro?). Note the verticality of the forward move and the unbelievably soft grasp of the rod with both hands during the entire stroke. Of course Dana's text is most helpful too. Another point: it seems to me in watching the videos of the underhand cast, these fellows are using a lot more of their bodies when turning into the D-Loop formation and their arms/hands are relatively more silent; the longer the line, the more upstream the body turn. Great fatigue-fighting factor. Sorry to digress so. But look at the videos esp. in slo-mo/pause mode, they are so helpful.
 

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P.S. to Peter-s-c

If you want to see a great visual of the 'secondary bounce', go to Dana's video library and check it out on tape # 13---I think it is Nobuo throwing a beautiful very long line with a big secondary bounce as Sean described it above.. Clyde
 
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