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Pullin' Thread
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This is a rather tip actioned rod that is no longer in production. I did not like the rod at all when I've casted it prior to settling on the T&T 16 ft. 11 weight I bought 6 years ago. I'd be afraid to cast it with a long belly line for fear that it would breal. It reminded me of a stiff, non-progressive shooting head thrower. It is rated for a 10/11 line and it will throw a 10/11 Windcutter OK. I just hated the action of it though. I like a fast rod that progressively loads further down the blank as you push the rod to cast farther and farther. This rod does not do this.
 

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The 10160-3 is a euro-model, my experience with the rod is that it is an excellent long-belly rod. In fact the first time I saw it in action was in Derek Brown's hands at the very first Spey School he did in North America. He was throwing the ultra-long belly Speydriver further than we had ever seen a speyline cast.

For a number of years it was Dana's go to rod and I have used it on and off since then on the Thompson exclusively with ultra long belly lines and it is a wonderful rod. My only complaints revolve around the blank thickness and weight. In the normally windy conditions of the Thompson the wide profile gets a bit tiring to push through the wind. Otherwise, those who's style permit them to cast it find it a great rod.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
kush said:
The 10160-3 is a euro-model, my experience with the rod is that it is an excellent long-belly rod. In fact the first time I saw it in action was in Derek Brown's hands at the very first Spey School he did in North America. He was throwing the ultra-long belly Speydriver further than we had ever seen a speyline cast.

For a number of years it was Dana's go to rod and I have used it on and off since then on the Thompson exclusively with ultra long belly lines and it is a wonderful rod. My only complaints revolve around the blank thickness and weight. In the normally windy conditions of the Thompson the wide profile gets a bit tiring to push through the wind. Otherwise, those who's style permit them to cast it find it a great rod.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
sage 16ftr

Thanks for the answer. Which line would you reccomend for the rod since so many new llines have been developed?
how can you tell if a Sage rod is a euro model? What difference is there in a US model and a euro ? I am told the euro is much stiffer blank. Is this true? What was the maximum distance you could achieve on a good day and what line would you reccomend for me to try with the rod?
 

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10163 Sage

I too was at Derek Brown's initial spey class about 5 years ago at Maupin(Kauffman's Streamborn lodge), OR, and also attended his course the next year. My first rod was the Sage 10163 which I remember Derek referring to as the "cannon". By the way, Derek's video I believe is the best nut 'n bolts type instruction out there and that includes Vincent's International video with Gawesworthy. I have never fished this rod, but only practice with it on a lagoon. It seemed very heavy and I would rarely practice my casting with it for longer than 1/2 hour. I found that with the Abel 4 and the Rio Windcutter 10/11 belly end at the rod tip, the rod balanced about 3-4 inches above the top of the cork. By balancing the rod (with the belly out the top of the rod) on the back of a chair, I found by putting sock after wollen sock on the butt end of the rod, the rod would balance at the top of the upper cork with about 7 oz of socks on the butt end. I went to the hardware store and bought an 8 oz roll of lead/tin solder wire(saw this hint somewhere on this site). I put the entire 8 oz. on the butt-end of the rod, spiraling up the butt for about 4 inches and then back down to the butt end and just anterior to the rubber plug at the butt end of the handle. I picked up the rod/reel and IT FELT AWFUL! Not discouraged I went to my lagoon, gradually played out more and more belly , and things began to change--for the better. I also began to take some wire off until with the entire belly out the tip(?80 feet) it really began to feel GREAT. The rod seemed to come alive and more powerful. Also it felt that my stroke was slowing down and rather the feel heavier in my hands it felt lighter(I weighed the wire left on the handle when I got home and it weighed 7.5 oz.) I also found that I was casting the single spey as well or better with my left hand up(I am right-handed) as with my right hand up. Rembering a point made in Vincent's International spey video by the Scandinavian that in using the spey rod in over-head casts one uses the upper hand primarily as a FULCRUM and the bottom hand with its greater leverage is the real force in the forward cast. Hence when I single-speyed with my left hand up and my dominant right hand down I was casting better. With this in mind rather than using each hand with about 50% force each, I was using my lower hand as the more dominant and the upper hand more as a fulcrum. From a leverage standpoint, more force with the lower hand makes perfect "physics' sense. I was having such fun at this new level of casting I had reached that my usual half hour session with this rod had extended to more than an hour! A rod I had considered selling, now is off the trading block! Eventually I plan to have a rod smith put a lead plug in the butt end for better esthetics. Great eye-opener to me this afternoon and in my book a better balanced rod sure improved things for me. By the way I was using a Rio Windcutter floater 10-11.
 

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speaking of videos...Derek brown

I watched the derek brown video several years ago .I wasfishing on the Margaree river in Nva Scotia and a fly shop had that video .. Yes it made perfectr sense,,. Recently I purchased Mel Kreigers video That one goes great detail about the lower hand and how important it is.. I am trying different lines to see which one gives it great feel.. have tried the rio accelerator with the two dry line tips not sure if it will do it for me tried the triangle taper 70 ft head and that was a little better10/11 to casting the rod on the water.. Right now it is backyard time for the rod.. The balance isn't too bad but I am currently using a okuma 10/11 reel on the rod.. Not thinking of lead at this time. thanks for the reply... Mike...
 

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mel krieger

Interesting you mentioned the mel krieger video---the spey casting piece is in the second video of his and this the video that started the whole spey casting thing with me. That old guy(careful Clyde, that 'old guy' is probably a couple years older than you are) was stading in this big water throwing these incredibly beautiful casts made me think I had to learn that technique! It's lead me further out west and the land of the steelhead. Great fun. Wish I could fish more, but do get a lot of practice with the Sage 10160-3, 8150-3 and my little Scott 6129-4(which I have converted into 6130-4). So much to do, so little time!
 
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Actually, I think the video referred to was Mel's third, called "The Essence of Spey Casting." Mel makes it look easy and the scenery in Iceland is gorgeous. However, Mel makes a couple of serious mistakes regarding what underhand speycasting is and on how to determine whether to use a single spey or double spey cast. I've watched the video several times, but those sections always make me wince. The Derek Brown and the Gawesworth are the one's to have if you're planning on getting only a couple.
 

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2nd? 3rd?

Jr Spey: I don't have Krieger's "3rd" video, but do have the first two. There was little or no spey instruction in this second video just about a couple of minutes showing this fella doing the spey moves. Enough to get me interested. I have found Krieger's videos short on really basic instruction and long on hype.
 

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Line for 10160

MikeF,

Of the new longbelly lines out there, the GrandSpey 9/10 would be the one I would spring for if I were lining the 10160.

Clyde,

The course I was refering to was before the first Kaufman's school, it was hosted by Dana and Michael & Young Flyshop on the Fraser River. At that class Derek was casting the 10160. As I said he was casting it miles, and miles, and miles...

It is interesting how you relate the evolution of your inclusion of the underhand in your casting as a silmilar thing happened with me. It was a discussion that was occurring here about how far apart we keep our hands during the cast. I found that my optimum spread was only about 14-15" and the reason (after close observation was that it allowed me to generate more rod-speed by using a "push - pull" motion that was maximized by the 15" spread. Later video evidence confirms this.

Dana has spent a great deal of time learning to "Underhand Cast" and it has become his prefered method. For just as you say, he believes the underhand dominant motion loads the rod more effeciently than any other way. While this is without question true with mid and short belly lines, Dana has demonstrated that the use of the underhand dominant motion is clearly applicable to long belly casting as well.
 

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misc.

Kush---I didn't know what the "underhand" cast was until your last post, so guess that's what I picked up on my own at my last practice session(and unfortunately from a spey fishing standpoint, I do a lot more practicing than fishing, but that's what I must give up living here in savannah, ga). Interestingly enough I was just balancing my Sage 8150-4 and looking at the upper cork, the lower end of it was dark(used) and the upper end light(UNused): distance between dark portion of the upper cork and the butt where my lower hand is positioned? About 15"! So though I can recall Derek urging us to spread our hands to the very extremes of the handle positions, that wasn't I guess what felt natural to me. Derek's lower hand position was usually only his thumb and index finger circling the rubber knob at the bottom of the butt end and the rest of his bottom hand dangling beneath the butt end. Perhaps as one gets better we'll be widening our hands.
For the sake of completeness, my Sage 8150-4 with the Abel 4 and the Rio WC 8-9 belly out the tip and on the floor, balances about 1.5 inches below the top of the upper cork-perfect for me. My third rod, the Scott ARC 6120-4(I added 3 inches onto the butt end to make it 12' instead of Scott's 6119-4) with an Abel 2 and the belly of the Rio Mid-Spey 6-7 hanging out the rod tip on the floor, the rod balances at the top of the upper cork-fine for me. Lord, I've got to get out of the basement and go fishing! Happy, and Fishy 2003 to All! P.S. Thanks Kush for the heads up on the Grand Spey for the Sage 10160-3
 

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Clyde

I think the distance your hands are apart is dictated by the style you use. With a clear top hand dominance you will probably be more efficient with a wider grip. The logic of it is based on the fact that rod speed will be produced solely by the distance that the top hand travels, the bottom hand doesn't move - so the wider the grip the further the tip travels. Similarly, it makes sense with the typical Scandinavian style where the top hand is basically a fulcrum and the bottom hand dominates the motion that a wide grip is the most effecient.

However, with a style like mine or yours, where both hands play an important role in the "push-pull" the physics of the action dictate the optimum width of grip at about 15" for the average guy. So, I do not think your hands will find themselves further apart as your skill level increases. That will only occur if you change your style, which unless you are having major problems there is no reason to do!

On another note, a speyfisher in Savannah! How often do you get to actually fish your speyrods? Man, I feel for you - maybe you and Juro should form some kind of support group - I dunno, something like S. A. D. (Speyfishers Abstracted by Distance)
:eyecrazy:
 

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Obviously don't spey much---next year five days with Dennis Dickson on the Olympic Penninsula in March and five days with Scott ODonnell on the Grande Ronde in October. Will retire in two years and then will do more. I live near a long lagoon, so spend a good bit of time practicing which I admit is a darn poor substitute, but a guys gotta do what hes gotta do! But you know the neat thing about the spey technique is that I find spey moves finding their way into my single-handed fly fishing just as Derek suggests inthe video. About half myfishing is done with the single hander.
 
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