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Discussion Starter #1
I am brand new to this group and a relative newbie to spey casting. I just bought a Sage 7141-1. Reading the posts in this group, I get the impression that the Rio Midspey 7/8 would probably be the best all around line for this rod - right? Is there really a great advantage in getting the multi tip version vs. cutting the last 15' of the regular floating line, attaching loops and using a couple of different densities of sink tips?:confused:

I mainly fish the Cowlitz near my home here in WA and want to be able to routinely get out 80 - 90 foot cast - so I don't have to wade out too far in the cold water this winter. :)
 

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Welcome

Welcome to the board.

You can use the search function on 7141 to see past discussion on the best lines for this rod.

RIO's site http://www.rioproducts.com/pages/speylinespecifications.html
Indicates 6/7 mdspey for better casters/those who like a faster rod and 7/8 for those who are beginning/like a deep load.

If you have not spey cast before, get some lessons, at least, some help from someone who is a good caster. It will save a lot of frustration.
 

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hairwing re the 7141 and lines.

I have a 7141 and until recently the best line for it has been the Rio Mid Spey 7/8 with tips. It is a great combination. I have a Mid Spey 6/7 floater, and I prefer to use my 7136 with that line. The 7141 is really to most of us an 8 weight with hair on its chest. I could never get the MS 6/7 floater to load properly and wind had more of a negative impact than with the MS 7/8.

Recently, I have been trying Rio's new Grand Spey 7/8 floating line. For me, the 7141 and the GS 7/8 floater are made for each other for top water and long leader casts. I have a few 15' furled leaders, and they work very well with the GS 7/8 floater and the 7141.

I will use the GS 7/8 floater for fall and early winter. When the rivers get a lot of rain and water, I will go back to my MS 7/8 with the tips. Also, for me, the GS 7/8 handles strong winds with more authority than the MS 7/8.

The one downside of the GS is it is a heavy line, and after a few hours, my old shoulders feel the difference in weight versus the MS 7/8.

The MS and in particuliar the GS are big lines and are reel hogs.

The Loop 4 if you can find one is a little light, but it will handle 300 yards of the Tuf-Line 30# backing and either line. My new Sage/Redington Brakewater 11/12 with the same backing will barely handle the MS with tips and can't load all of the Grand Spey on the reel, which is a shame as it balances the 7141 better than the Loop 4 does.

You have a great rod. Have fun in finding the right line/lines and reel to balance it.
 

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This is a sweet rod. My favorite floating line is the Triangle taper 8/9 spey. Wulff has changed their line weight designations and I think that is now a TT 8 spey.

I use a Mastery 8/9 spey and a Grandspey 7/8 whck have been cut and looped for tips at 17' and 15' respectively. I'm using 7 and 8 weight rio tips and some 18' type IV tips made from SA shooting heads. I prefer the Mastery line on this rod.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I called the Customer Service Department at Sage today and spoke with Travis. I told him I wanted to use the Rio MidSpey line with tips on this rod and he strongly recommended the 8/9 weight.

I am still interested in hearing from others that have experience with different brands and weights.

Thanks for your help.
 

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Pullin' Thread
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You can use the MidSpey 8/9 with this rod; however, it overloads it to a degree. This overloading causes the rod to bend well into the butt; but it does take power away from the rod when you do so. Using an 8/9 MidSpey also slows the rod down a bunch.

I like fast-action rods and much prefer the 7141 with the 6/7 MidSpey as a result. However, there are a lot of folks who like the 7/8 MidSpey or other 7/8 spey lines on it. I don't know anyone who owns this rod that is fishing it with the 8/9 MidSpey.
 

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If at all possible . . .

try them! There's nothing like actually feeling what each line casts like with varying lengths of line out, both floating and with tips.

I don't know where you get your flyfishing supplies, but if you have speycasting friends who might have this line have them lend it to you to give it a try.

If not, then PM me - I have the MidSpey 7/8 (which I'm guessing would be the best for that rod - I don't own the rod but have cast that combo once before) and could lend it to you if all else fails.

Take it from someone who has a BOX (as in packing box) filled with old spey lines. Buyers regret is painful at the $60 - $130 a pop cost of new lines these days.

Good Luck!

DS
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I called the Sage Customer Service Department back again late this afternoon and spoke with a different rep. I told her that I had gotten reliable feedback that the 8/9 MidSpey would probably overload the 7141, robbing it of most of it's fast action qualities. After much discussion she agreed. With the caution that everyone seems to have their own opinion, based on their own individual experience and idiosyncrasies, she recommended the 7/8 weight of the MidSpey.

So I probably will go with MidSpey 7/8 or the 7/8/9 WindCutter with tips as recommended on the Rio website. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Grandpa Spey question: How much of that 7/8 Grandspey's 80 foot head are you holding out of the rod tip on a typical cast? I looked up head weights at the Speyshop database and it says the entire head (80 feet) of the 7/8 GrandSpey is 900 grains. If the head of an 8/9 MidSpey line at 640 grains overloads a Sage 7141 - it seems that 900 grains would turn it into molasses.

This database is a great resource for line comparison - if I am thinking straight. It would indicate for example that if the 7/8 MidSpey with a head weight of 560 grains is a good choice for the Sage 7141 - then the WindCutter 7/8/9 at 525 would be a little lighter and more responsive to the fast action qualities of the rod. And the 7/8 Airflo Delta Spey at 530 and the 6/7 Airflo Long Delta Spey at 550 might do well.

Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Hairwing

I had about 60' of line out plus or minus 10 feet with most casts. I didn't measure and mark the line since it is a loaner. I mark my other spey lines for the best/maximum line out for me. Using Bob Pauli's math, 14' of rod, plus 60' of line ='s 74 of line plus a 15' leader ='s about 89' out there.

When you have 3 spey rods and 3 of Bob Meiser's two handed rods and a handful of spey lines, my old memory gets over loaded trying to keep up with all of this stuff . I discussed this problem with Bob Pauli. I am going to create a quick glance sheet for all of my lines so I know what I'm dealing with re length at first and then weight second. Then on the other side, I will have the sinking rates with or without the sinking tip compensator. Then, I will laminate it and stick in the top of my Tilly (sp) hat for quick and easy reference.

With what I know now, my first and basic line for the 7141 is the MS 7/8 with tips. The GS 7/8 would be the dry/floating line. However as you pointed out and I have pointed out and Jim Vincent has pointed out, when you cast with a GS you have a lot of heavy line out. That requires a lot more effort than casting the MS 7/8. The one complaint I have about my 7141 is that it is a heavy rod, about as heavy as my 10151. Throw a big reel on it and some heavy line, and you are moving a lot of weight over the day.

What is this data base you referred to and is it available on the internet.
 

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loco alto!
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seems to me that shooting for a specific grain weight only works when you also consider the length of the line, and some rough estimate of grains per foot.

My experience is that a rod can handle more grains on a longer line than a short one. For example, on a rod that I fish, it loads fine using 54' of Windcutter 7/8/9 (585 gr), 65' of Midspey 8/9 (640 gr), or 90' of DT9 (720 gr). So the optimum grains seem to be a sliding scale depending on line length.

granpa:
http://www.speyshop.com/spey_line_weights__and_head_leng.htm
 

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loco_alto

Thanks for your reply and data. The link is superb.

What I want to do is create a quick reference chart so that if I drive down to a river, and where I need to fish is X feet out there and Y feet down. What rod and line/tips will fit the equation the best, and I can find the best line and maybe tip/tips quickly. Also, what fish are migrating upstream and the size of the fish would be factored into the mix. Also, what is the wind velocity like and from what direction. I developed a chart for Rio's 15 tips with and without the tip compensator, and it is really helpful in determing to get in the zone re the depth. Now, I need to develop a chart for my various lines re my comfort level of casting with head length with/without tips.
 

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When D-loop is formed only part of the the line between tip of the rod and middle of the D-loop loads the rod, where
the rest of the line is acting as the drag.
So, only part of the 65 gr ( the difference between windcutter and midspey ) is used to load the rod.
For that reason the line with longer head requires more gr to load the rod.


Salmo
 

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Great Observation, Hairwing!

It's important to remember how much of the head you have out when you're casting, how much line you're shooting, and whether or not you're using a sinktip or not (and what wt/density).

All these things affect the load on the rod and it's performance.

I remember people saying how much they liked the WindCutter 9-10-11 on the old brownie Sage 9140-4 (Kush's Noodle). In fact, this was THE standard issue setup for new speycasters many moons ago.

I tried that combo and it seriously overloaded the rod. It might roll the head out, but especially with 9wt tips it would collapse if you tried to shoot line.

Of course, when I made this comment online many came back and said "I use tips with this setup and shoot XXX' and it works fine". When questioned further, I found that they were stripping in an extra 10- 15' past the shooting line / head juncture before they were able to shoot all that line. Hmmm - maybe suggesting that the line's too heavy for the rod??:eek: :eek:

It's fine with me however you'd like to line your rod, but as a courtesy to those who you advise about lines/weights that work well on a specific rod it's nice to consider these things.

Thanks for listening to my little rant. I really enjoy the line discussions on here.

DS
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Grampa, salmo, Doublespey, flytyer, loco_alto -

I think I am beginning to get it thanks to you guys. It makes perfect sense to me that on any spey line with a longer head – on a spey cast where most or all of the head is out of the rod tip - only that portion of the head that is aerialized in the D-loop is actually loading the rod (the portion anchored in the water is neutral to rod load). Any portion of the line that is anchored and the leader/tippet/fly, the weight/mass of the aerialized line and the sudden change in direction of the rod tip– all combine to load the rod to different degrees depending on the rate of forward acceleration. The taper would of course also be a major factor - e.g. more mass in the middle or rear (rod side) of the head = greater load on the road vs. greater mass near the tip of the head = less load on the rod. Also, I would suppose, a greater mass of line near the rod tip, accelerated to a certain forward speed would generate the momentum necessary to turn over an even greater mass of line ahead of it. Hence – a fast action (i.e. tip action) rod that can achieve greater line acceleration over a shorter distance (i.e. time/space) has the potential for turning over more line than a slower action rod – if the caster does it right.

So a long head would need a taper that concentrates the mass back near the end (rod side) in order to turn over the forward (anchored) portion of head at the end of the cast.

Grampa - is that what happens with the 7/8 GrandSpey - the taper is such that most of the mass is back near the very end of the 80 foot head?

I really appreciate you guys helping me understand this better.
 

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hairwing

You lost me. :confused:

My last psychics class was about 45 years ago.

Bop Pauli and Simon can probably help you.

I have enough problems casting without going through all of that!:eyecrazy:
 

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Another rec.

Congrats on getting into this spey thing. I like that rod you pourchased. I've had one for a couple of seasons. The midspey will probably serve you we'll. As for my own preferance, I use a XLT 7/8 floater and a windcutter for tip work. Not sure about a grand spey on that rod. I've tried a number of different lines and like the combination I use now. For 80 or 90 ft. foot casts, a lot of different lines will work. Try as many as you can get your hands on.
For long line work, I usually prefer the XLTon my rods. It feels a lot different than the grandspey when you pick up the belly off the end of the tip. Have fun.
Jimsand
 

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Hairwing, re casting physics

Hairwing-
I am a few decades away from these things but as I recall this matter is simpler than you make it. I ask more current engineering types on this board to offer corrections of any errors I make here.

An engineer looking at this process draws a "black box" around the rod and line.

Examining only the forward stroke, exiting the black box is a fly line, leader and fly, which have a combined energy = 1/2 x [mass of the line, leader and fly] x [velocity of line, leader and fly squared].

Entering the box is the energy supplied by the person casting.

There is no energy modification due to line length, line stick, etc. There is only energy in and energy out and energy out is dependent only on mass and velocity.

P.S. - Flytyer, once again, grains rule, if the above passes peer review on this board.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Bob Pauli

Yeah, Bob you’re right. I am a biologist not an engineer. So no doubt , I am over complicating it. I know that you can't get more energy out of one end of the line than you put into the other. I was just trying to figure out how maybe the taper of a spey line works like a lever to turn over the forward portion of the head, tippet and fly. I don't understand how, with the same spey cast (ie. same amount of energy) and the entire head out past the rod tip, an 8/9 Midspey line with a head weight of 640 grains overloads a Sage 7141 but a 7/8 Grandspey with a head weight of 900 grains does not overload it. :confused: If that is a fact, it seemed to me that there must be more to overloading or not overloading than the simple grain weight of the heads. As salmo and loco_alto suggest, I was trying to imagine that maybe something in the mechanics of the cast (e.g. shape of the D loop) acting on the taper of the head overcame the greater mass of the heavier head of the 7/8 Grandspey without overloading a Sage 7141.

Anyway, I got the Midspey 7/8 with tips. Grampa Spey and Doublespey sold me. I am really looking forward to getting out this weekend and doing some casting on the Cowlitz with my brand new Sage 7141 - and maybe even catching a steelie – or at least a cutthroat.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice. :)
 

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Hairwing

Hairwing posted, "Anyway, I got the Midspey 7/8 with tips. Grampa Spey and Doublespey sold me. I am really looking forward to getting out this weekend and doing some casting on the Cowlitz with my brand new Sage 7141 - and maybe even catching a steelie – or at least a cutthroat. "

I think that you will be very satisified with the MS 7/8 with tips with your 7141.

Let us know how it works for you.
 
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