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Pin cushion
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Discussion Starter #1
I purchased a 9/10 short belly last week, took it out for a test run on a 13ft GLX last night and encountered a technical difficullty. The line loaded the rod and casted very nicely with a regular mono leader, but as soon as I looped on a 10' extra super fast poly leader everything went to he!! :mad: I have casted poly tips on a mid spey with a 15 footer, and never had a problem turning it over,granted thats a lot bigger set up, but come on! I consider myself to have quite a bit of experiance throwing tips(poly leaders-300gr.big boys) and I didn't anticipate this problem. My plans for this set up were to use it floating and with some poly leaders on smallish water . I don't really want to have to cut up a brand new line,but ya gotta do what ya gotta do I suppose :frown: Somebody please tell me my marginal casting was less than marginal and that I should be able to turn over a 10' poly leader with this setup!!!!
twohand
 

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Pin cushion
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Discussion Starter #2
Does everyone agree on 15', before I hack into a 70.00 line
 

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twohand

Even floating poly leaders increase the total grain wieght of the line your casting quite a lot. When you start talking super fast sinking poly leaders then you are increasing that grain wieght upwards of 60 to 80 grains. Not many lines out thier that will cast that off of the tip of the front taper, infact can't even think of one that does it clean and neat. If you want to cast tips of 100 to 200 grains then do cut it back 15', if you want to throw poly leaders of various sink rates then you will have to start cutting it back until it has enough energy to turn those over. Cutting this line back 15' and attaching a 10 poly leader may find you not having enough grains to load the rod to your liking. Bottom line is, take the time to fine tune the line to cast the tips you will be using on a consistant basis. Cut it a foot at a time until you get it right for you.
 

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I have an 8/9 and it makes one of the best floating presentations I know. If I were to cut it for tips, I would weigh it first at 15 feet and then see what I had that would match. I’d weigh mine for you, but it is different for the 9/10. For now, I’ll keep mine intact and just use my WC with tips for getting down deep.
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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846 Posts
I've ran my 6/7 Short Head w/ 10' X-Super Fast Sinking polyleaders without a problem.

If you still have an issue, cut just the tip off (6"...and it won't effect the presentation qualities of your dryline presentation) and nail knot in a 40# butt, perfection loop it at about a foot and give it a try. I've never found the grain weights of the 10' and shorter polyleaders to make any noticeable differance in the castability of a certain setup (you may have to work a bit quicker to keep up the sinking leader....).

However, I have found the grain weights of the 14-15' polyleaders to make a very measurable differance in the castability of a certain setup.
 

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a/k/a loophitech
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457 Posts
How long are your poly leaders, 12'? I have not cut a line to use the poly leaders on and I have only cast one line that really rolled it out nicely and tht was the Carron Jetstream. Actually that is not true, I use them my scandinavian heads as well and they fly like an eagle!

I will have to agree with NrthFrk on the shorter leaders, also the cutting 6 or so inches from the tip. I would not recommend cutting to 15' as it will probably lead to even more casting problems IMHO.

If you still don't want to cut the line, try to raise your backcast more to keep just the tip of the leader (as opposed to the whole leader) as your anchor and make sure as soon it anchors, to make your cast. One can not lollygag and let the leader sink and create too much stick. Practice makes perfect! These are tricks that help me, so please take them with one big a$$ grain of salt. :D
 

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Here we go again!
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Airflo's x-fast sink 10' salmon poly leaders weigh 80 plus grains, but the trout 10' x-fast weigh about half that. I'd try the lighter poly leader first.
 

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Breaking strength

If you are going to use the trout plys' think about the breaking strength. Personally, I would not use them for steelhead or salmon, where there is the possibility of a large fish.
 

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"Worked fine with the Deltas but not with the Windcutters"

Did you try new WC ( 2004 model) which has better turnover capabilities?

Sazan
 

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Another thing to think about adding tips is when going to extremes like T-14. A person here, who shall remain nameless because of a tragic event that occurred on the river, had a head he was working with. The fifteen foot tip was removed and 10 feet of T-14 was removed. Essentially he was trading 140 grains for a 140 grains. The smaller diameter head had a real hard time turning over that T-14. Something I didn't know about because I had only used T-14 on higher line weights.
 

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They are like a WC, but a bit heavier. I have a 8/9 on my 13' for 9 or 14' for 9 Yellow Line and it's a great match. I prefer the short head instead of the WC. Really a good set up for getting back to basics on ones cast when you have been perverting it with overheading and Skagit/Scan head work with heavy tips. What do Robins catch?
 

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Pin cushion
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Discussion Starter #12
Huh, Just found this thread again....I guess I should of put it here in the first place.
Peter, I was using 30lb (40lb diameter)mason rock nylon for a butt, this was what was causing my problem. The mason is so stiff that the loops would not lock down together. The perfection loop in the mason actually stayed completly open causing a terrible hinge :whoa: As far as your other question goes. The 13ft glx seemed just fine to me with the 9/10 Sb.
 

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You can insert 15-20 lb mono into braided loop for extra stiffness.
In addition to one nail knot I spread tin layer of aquaseal.

Sazan
 

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Here we go again!
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Peter

I have the SA short 8/9 and throw it on the CND Skagit, a 9 weight rod. The 8/9 short head feels heavier in the air on the forward cast. By that I mean, it is as easy to pick up, form a D loop with and initiate the forward stroke as the Airflo's and windcutters, but it's mass really shows when it's sailing out there, pulling out running line and tugging at the reel at the end of the cast. It feels like a lot of mass over a shorter line without feeling "too heavy". As far as turning over tips, the following comparison is not really fair because of design. The Airflo, windcutter and SA, though similar in weight, are very different tapers and behave much differently. It will depend on what kind of feel you prefer.

The Airflo Delta tips weigh the least (considerably, at approx. 110 grains) and they turn over pretty easily with the Delta body where the short head feels a bit clunky turning over both the airflo tips, the 150 grain Rio tips and T-14, but is does turn that T-14 over where the Airflo does not want to. The real gem on the Skagit is the Windcutter using the compensator. Threw the 8/9/10 this past Sunday with the sink compensator and 150 gr. tips and it lifted from the water easiest and threw the farthest with the least effort, and certainly must have gotten the deepest with 30' of line sinking. I'd like to try the 9/10/11 because it actually felt a bit light, like it was still sort of casting off the tip of the rod and not digging in.

The SA short head actually felt best with the floating tip and sinking poly leader. I use 50# braided loops coated with thinned down Aquaseal to stiffen them without adding bulk. After much trial and error I'm settling on these loops as they do not hinge, are not too hard and flex with the same stiffness as the main line, behaving like the line itself for a more fluid turnover. I mix 3 parts Aquaseal with 1 part Cotol and it is very easy to work with (letting it soak into the braid then brushing off all excess) and sets up quickly, unlike straight Aquaseal.
 

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Here we go again!
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To clarify, the windcutter was easier because of the compensator. The 30' of sinking line was easier to pick up than a standard 15' tip because (I assume) the intermediate compensator lifts easily. With this setup, by the time the 15' of sink tip itself is clearing the water you have created a good bit of line speed, whereas a piece of T-14 is fighting the lift from the water and can be hard to get moving. Once it was clear of the water I really had to lift high and keep the line moving thoughout the entire stroke to keep the T-14 from digging into the water on anchor and killing the cast.

I used 3 different lengths of T-14, a 14' piece (my SA is cut and looped at 14'), a 10' piece and a 7.5' piece. The 14' was pretty unmanageable, the others not bad. I said this setup was clunky because of the difficulty in the lift and clearing of the water of the T-14. I'm toying with the idea of getting a #12 compensator and cutting the SA back a bit more and trying the short head with that compensator and the T-14 or Rio 150 gr. tips. I'm thinking that the mass of the SA line will really carry the rest of the line and the compensator will make the lift more manageable.

What I meant by the SA doing a better job with the T-14 than the Airflo is that the SA has more mass at the tip/loop connection point than the thinner Airflo and therefore handles the T-14 better, turning it over better. That too is my reasoning behind using the largest compensator Rio makes to carry the T-14, and utilizing the mass of the SA to handle/turn over the compensator. Then it will be a matter of calculating how much main line to use/ where to cut back with regards to total grains of the setup. The Skagit likes 650 to 700ish grain loads, depending on tapers.
 

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Here we go again!
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Ps....

I understand what you mean about casting weight, and believe it has to do with distribution of line mass in a tapers design. On that same Skagit rod a modified XLT that weighs in the neighborhood of 800 grains is heavier to lift and harder to create a dynamic D loop but forward casts easily (when you do the aforementioned two steps properly) and nets a longer cast, of course, with higher line speed. The short, heavy mass of the SA short head is easier to lift but has a more forceful outgoing cast.

A shorter, tighter taper compressing the weight into a smaller, more mass oriented line versus the XLT's long, finely unrolling taper that actually weighs more over a longer spread. It seems to be much more than just a window of grains that allows a rods tapers to perform.

Hope that made sense, I'm still trying to define it myself. :eek:
 

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Steelhead are cool!
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Matt,

I sure feel sorry for that joker who is going to remain nameless. :devil:
I think we should start a fundraiser for him. It all worked out in the end.
Thanks Speybum or I mean that person thanks you. :hihi:

Getting back to the topic. Some people on the board have cut the SA's
back 14' for Ed Ward style tips and they perform great. I would agree
with cutting back a little and try it. It sounds like you don't want to designate
this line strictly for sinktips. That is why I would trim as little as possible.
 

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Use or build tips

that have approximately the same length and number of grains as the floating section you remove and you should be good to go, at least within limits. Sunk tips longer than 15 feet are difficult for me and judging from factory tips, most other people to manage. I prefer the Ed Ward style, a little shorter, and looking for the more agressive fish.
 

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a/k/a loophitech
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twohand:

Just a thought here, have you tried the Loop Adapted lines yet? They work extremely well with tips and poly leaders and are fairly easy to cast, imho. 33' and 432 grains on my setup and it is saaweeeeeeeet.

Vinnie
 
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