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Pupil of the river.
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This kind of goes along with the thread I started a month ago about the Dip, Or No Dip and Hard Stop or No Stop.

I was fishing with a friend last week and I watched him repeatedly raise his rod tip significantly after sweeping and forming his D-loop on his Snap-T. He wasn't drifting back, kind of tipping up and creeping. It wasn't terrible, but it looked like it was robbing him of some power.

I had been doing this in the past, and it was robbing me of a lot of power. My D-loops looked more like L-loops. Just garbage really. I have since, been doing a hard stop after the sweep, in a lower rod position letting the D-loop form more of an aggressive V-loop. This goes for my Snap-T and Single. I don't know about the Double... Haven't used it enough lately to notice.

This has improved my casting power and line speed tremendously. What was a gutless and weak cast of 80 feet, has become a strong and precise cast of over 100 feet.

Then I was checking out the video section and found the latest video of this guy (jabster) casting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB8PRYAgwj4&index=7&list=UUrR3YrWyL0N_MkKQUpPe53g
He's doing a nice lift and drift back and getting his timing down and it's obviously working well for him.

So, what do you think, lift and/or drift?
 

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depends a lot on what line system you are using. I would typically say no lift or drift with short head systems - especially Skagit but think there can be a place for both with the mid and long belly lines
 

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Drift - It really depends on how much lift you are talking about. It need not be exaggerated when the tension (white mouse) is maintained on the line. A high lift after the sweep and excessive drift takes away from the forward cast and forces the tip to travel in an arch. At least initially. Watch Dec Hogan (video) casting on the McKenzie River and you will see a relatively high sweep and very little lift of the rod.

I begin every seep slow & low to the water so when I raise the rod to form the d loop it is not a high lift and I put a definite stop to it. So there isn't much of a drift either. With some adjustment I do basically the same casting a compact skagit head or extended belly. For me drift is really only a later part of the sweep/lift and only far back enough for a good casting angle. No further than 2 o'clock. Also, I'm sweeping the rod with top hand, the butt anchored against my lower hand and centered. Once the sweep begins raising - I begin pushing the rod (pulling line in reality) with both lower and top hand - just like a single spey form that point on which puts lot of line into a deep wedged loop.

Jabster posted this video and others over at the SPTV forum and explained casting heads from 24 to 50 feet which is short in my opinion and fly right off without a definite stop - regardless of what do myself as mentioned above.

There really is no wrong unless it is inefficient and forced.
 

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Adding a bit of drift is a good way to eliminate creep which I have a problem with. How much depends on which line your using and how far you want to cast. I'm not a very technical guy and don't really go too deep in to that stuff. As long as you get your fly to where you want, that's cool with me. That said, creep is the one of the biggest problems I see with people and a good way to eliminate that is to stop and do a mini drift.

Here's a clip of me doing a skagit cast as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0r1l9Z-ZU

Yes I do drift a bit and yes I still manage to creep also :D
 

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What Jabster does so well in each of the videos presented is to use both weight shift and body rotation to use his core muscles to power the cast. Notice his upper hand (left) foot placed forward and the shift to the back foot on the sweep and D loop formation with body rotation on the "circle up" to the firing position. On the forward cast his weight shifts to the forward foot and his body rotates allowing him to move the butt of the rod forward prior to rotation of the rod. This maintains tension on the line eliminating slack prior to the rotation of the rod for the final stage of the cast.
Good casting utilizes more than just the hands and arms.
 

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gcarlson - I would agree with your assessment when talking about mid and long belly lines but you need nothing more that minimal hand arm motions with the short skagits - my top hand rarely gets above my shoulder and you can hit very long casts if necessary with minimal effort and no body motion - there can be some rotation/twist of the upper body for proper alignment but that is all

Best,
R
 

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Can someone clarify or explain 'creep' please?

On another note I purposely try and add some drift. I believe I first saw it when the Mike Kinney casting videos. With an increased stroke (via drifting) while under maximum D/V-loop creation...theory says it should increase casting distance, no?
 

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I am not convinced that drift necessarily allows more distance - it really has little to do with getting a better back cast but all about helping on the timing of the forward cast - with overhead casting - if you timing is perfect you can cast 100 feet with a very short back cast and no or very minimal drift - but if you don't time the forward stroke perfectly you can have trouble - adding drift after the back cast stop allows you a longer forward stroke so if you timing is a bit off, it is not so critical
 

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Can someone clarify or explain 'creep' please?
Premature forward motion before the beginning of the forward stroke. Tends to both shorten the stroke and direct it downward.

With an increased stroke (via drifting) while under maximum D/V-loop creation...theory says it should increase casting distance, no?
Well there is drift vs. lift, not the same thing. You will see a lot of serious distance competitors executing a clear lift before the forward stroke. However, this is to a great extent a stylistic thing, and you cannot willy-nilly incorporate a terminal lift into any casting style or stroke and expect improved results. Improper execution or mismatch with the stroke leads to trunking, blown anchors, or both.
 

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Thanks Troutless. when I said drift I think I meant drift with lift.

I'm going to see if I have creep in my casts. I don't think so. I suppose I should video tape myself.
 

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After starting with a delta, I've been using scandi and occasionally skagit heads for several years. I'm just beginning to reverse that path, so please keep that in mind with any of my remarks.

I do agree to an extent with Rick J above, that long casts can be made with long lines with minimal movement, but I also think the timing and stillness required would keep me from ever accomplishing that. To hold a position with absolute stillness, every movement accentuated by the length of the rod, while the line unfurls/loads, is probably beyond me. Why the need for stillness? Any movement not inline with the cast, or in the direction opposite (creep) may/will introduce slack, the enemy of efficient energy transfer, good turnover and distance.

I think opening the movement, drifting, just as in single hand casting, affords the opportunity to use that longer rod movement to remove waves and/or slack that come from my imperfect movements, resulting in a tight line moving in the right direction. As timing improves, the movement can be reduced/compacted, but with a longer line I will probably always need greater distance within my casting stroke as compared to the tighter, confined movements of a short skagit.

I think that's what I meant. It's an ongoing thing.
 
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