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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Something else to consider with tips........

I really dislike poly leaders unless it’s with a trout Spey. They don’t have the energy to really carry much at all and get beat up in the wind something fierce!!!
What I discovered (and many of you probably also) is that the Rio INTOUCH replacement tips (in a lighter wt than your rod) work like an absolute dream paired with scandi heads 500gr and above. Plus, they last way way longer
That's been my experience as well. If you're pushing the fly weight / size envelope at all I like the Mow light tips, (10' 80 grains) even as low as 420 airflo compact scandis. On the other hand, I've not used any 5' fast salmon/steelhead polyleaders. I'm curious if they might have enough mass? Seems likely they'd be better than the 10's for bigger flies (I realize that both "bigger flies" and "heavier flies" are pretty useless terms unless related to a specific "smaller and lighter" fly, but I trust that you'll get the idea)?
 

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Actually, we're talking about the time involved in changing sink tips verses changing entire 3d lines with a pre-installed leader and fly. The assumption being that, if you're hanging up on the bottom that you'll likely change to the slower sinking 3d with a leader and slower sinking fly already attached. That's much like changing to a slower sink tip and a slower sinking fly.

Am I correct that you remove your fly and leader and then remove your sink tip, install the new sink tip and then reinstall the fly and leader? If so, Isn't it faster to just cut the fly off, remove the tip with the leader still installed, and tie a fly back on to the new sink tip that already had a leader looped on? In either event, It's the sink tip to scandi or skagit head connection loops that won't allow a steelhead fly to pass without great effort--thus that need to remove the fly one way or another. Dealing with a fly with 3' of loose leader attached on two occasions to facilitate a sink rate change seems like it would be more challenging and time consuming and would require better density?
Yes, I remove the leader and fly combo by loosening the loop-to-loop connection between the fly line tip and the line or sink tip. I then hang them from my vest while replacing the incorrect sink tip with (hopefully) a correct one. I never leave a leader connected to a sink tip while in storage; never heard of anyone doing that, in fact. Ninety-eight % of the time, I stick with the former leader and fly, at least for a while.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
When you are casting head like Hover/int/sink 3, a rear part of the head which forms D-loop has a lower diameter/higher density then floating head and therefore cuts via air easier. This give a rod a bit better load/feels slightly heavier vs. floating.

Also few things to consider:

Rio 3D 480 gr is 34' long while 520 gr is 38' and 580 gr is 39'

480 gr and 580gr have the same weight ratio rear half of head to the front half. More

on 520 gr head rear half to front half is lower.

More weight distributed in the rear half = better load.

Considering that the biggest impact on a load has rear half, 480 gr 3D will load your rod very similarly as 520gr.

Personally, for above reason I do not like 520 gr version of Rio 3D either F-H-Int or How-Int-S3.

For some rods. like CFB 8142-4 where I needed 535-540 gr, I cut from the back 580 gr; 9/10 head, re-looped using polyurethane line form old Delta ( PU welds exceptionally well to PVC) and it works beautifully.
I went casting on a local river today with both the burky 7wt with a 3d 440 gr. and the meiser 8 wt.with the 3d 520. I tested the burky first for about 30 minutes and found the 440 fun to cast and everything I could hope for especially after I found the right amount of overhang. I am curious about using the 480 3d on it since it will be closer to the 500 grains I usually cast on that rod (420 airflo scandi compact and 80 grain mow light tip).

The meiser with the 520 was every bit as difficult as you suggested and for the reasons you stated. The good news is I'll be able to purchase the 480 and try it on both the 7 and 8 wt.

Because I like the 8 wt Meiser with an airflo 510 scandi and a mow lite 80 grain tip, my gut tells me that I'll likely end up with the 580 3d--possible with some cut from the back. Perhaps the correlation between the two is not meaningful?

Speaking of cutting, what about cutting 5' off the back of the seemingly useless 520? Will that change the distribution ratio significantly enough to make it more like a 480? Where did you find the data on the weight of each section?

I appreciate your input as your insight has proven to be very helpful.
 

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Speaking of cutting, what about cutting 5' off the back of the seemingly useless 520? Will that change the distribution ratio significantly enough to make it more like a 480? Where did you find the data on the weight of each section?

I appreciate your input as your insight has proven to be very helpful.
Attached is profile of 480 gr 3D. the 580 gr ( 9/10) would be ca. 38'. Keep in mind that the rear part ( in case of H-I-S3,) it would be hover is has a constant diameter. . An average weight of the rear part is ca. 19 gr . For example mine 9/10 ( F-H-I) was originally [email protected] gr . The rear 12" taper is lighter.
Even if you prune it by 4' total form the back there are still plenty of rear taper on 9/10 and it will for sure cast very well.

Do not pre-cut line. !!!!!!!!!!!!


Cut less, let's say 30 inches , tie at the back loop using nail knot using 30-40 lb mono , cast on the river with the real fly . If it fells to heavy, cut 6" and repeat the process. Once you start liking it ( not perfect yet, may be just a bit to heavy) weld the loop and fish for few days before making the final fine-running.

520 gr is just a simple extension of 480 gr I by extending the lightest, rear part. 580 gr is thicker in all sections. Pruned forth back 580 gr; wt.9/10 will have more turnover power.


Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Plot

As for casting 2 gram dry fly ( 30 grains) 3D is not a line to do it. I would use barely weighted fly, up to 15-17 grains including hook and if needed go with faster 3D. Let the head to sink the fly not weight on the fly. The set up will will cast better, and a fly will have more action in the water. If you use tube fly, add Rhea, some flashabou, color, you can have a large profile fly but not necessarily heavy.



The hallow conehead on the fly below is only 0.25 g ( ca. 4 grains) and hoop is 0.3 g ( 5 grains) . Total fly wight ca. 1.0 g ( 16 grains) . When using Rio 9/10 F-H-I cut to 538 gr on CFB 8142-4, and ca. 8 foot fluorocarbon leader ( FC sinks like fast intermediate) a fly like this is getting a free flying lesson.

I use faster compact stroke ( underhand cast). A speed of the fly has a larger contribution to energy than mass.

Generally, I like to pre-tie flies with 30-36" " tippet and attach it via loop to loop connection to a core FC leader of various length.

For H-I-S3 I loop 24-30" section of thicker FC to the front of the head and then attache tippet. Total leader, including tippet, around 5-5.5'. For a smaller flies a leader can be longer.

Feather Finger Natural material Creative arts Electric blue
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Attached is profile of 480 gr 3D. the 580 gr ( 9/10) would be ca. 38'. Keep in mind that the rear part ( in case of H-I-S3,) it would be hover is has a constant diameter. . An average weight of the rear part is ca. 19 gr . For example mine 9/10 ( F-H-I) was originally [email protected] gr . The rear 12" taper is lighter.
Even if you prune it by 4' total form the back there are still plenty of rear taper on 9/10 and it will for sure cast very well.

Do not pre-cut line. !!!!!!!!!!!!

Cut less, let's say 30 inches , tie at the back loop using nail knot using 30-40 lb mono , cast on the river with the real fly . If it fells to heavy, cut 6" and repeat the process. Once you start liking it ( not perfect yet, may be just a bit to heavy) weld the loop and fish for few days before making the final fine-running.

520 gr is just a simple extension of 480 gr I by extending the lightest, rear part. 580 gr is thicker in all sections. Pruned forth back 580 gr; wt.9/10 will have more turnover power.


View attachment 400077
As for casting 2 gram dry fly ( 30 grains) 3D is not a line to do it. I would use barely weighted fly, up to 15-17 grains including hook and if needed go with faster 3D. Let the head to sink the fly not weight on the fly. The set up will will cast better, and a fly will have more action in the water. If you use tube fly, add Rhea, some flashabou, color, you can have a large profile fly but not necessarily heavy.



The hallow conehead on the fly below is only 0.25 g ( ca. 4 grains) and hoop is 0.3 g ( 5 grains) . Total fly wight ca. 1.0 g ( 16 grains) . When using Rio 9/10 F-H-I cut to 538 gr on CFB 8142-4, and ca. 8 foot fluorocarbon leader ( FC sinks like fast intermediate) a fly like this is getting a free flying lesson.

I use faster compact stroke ( underhand cast). A speed of the fly has a larger contribution to energy than mass.

Generally, I like to pre-tie flies with 30-36" " tippet and attach it via loop to loop connection to a core FC leader of various length.

For H-I-S3 I loop 24-30" section of thicker FC to the front of the head and then attache tippet. Total leader, including tippet, around 5-5.5'. For a smaller flies a leader can be longer.

View attachment 400078
Thanks for the great overview of the 3d lines. Some great advice!
In doing a rather crude weighing of various attached back end coils, It appears that 30" will get me to 480 (the line actually weighs 527). I'll start with a 16" cut and then drop to 8" increments. However, it that's correct I'll need to cut some off the front to get it down to 34'?

As for flies, I use mostly unweighted flies but have some large unweighted intruders that weigh 29 grains dry that I use during high receding/murky water. My 8wt. 12'6" rod with the airflo scandi 510 casts those flies easily with a 10' 80 grain tip (a poly leader won't do it). The fortunate thing is they use no bunny strips and gain a minimal amount of weight wet. My interest in converting to 3d stems from a desire to eliminate extra reels, reel spools, extra tips and polyleaders. It may be that I'll need to continue with the airflo with a tip If I find that the 480 is the right 3d for the 8 wt. and it is incapable of casting large unweighted intruders.
 

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Thanks for the great overview of the 3d lines. Some great advice!
In doing a rather crude weighing of various attached back end coils, It appears that 30" will get me to 480 (the line actually weighs 527). I'll start with a 16" cut and then drop to 8" increments. However, it that's correct I'll need to cut some off the front to get it down to 34'?

As for flies, I use mostly unweighted flies but have some large unweighted intruders that weigh 29 grains dry that I use during high receding/murky water. My 8wt. 12'6" rod with the airflo scandi 510 casts those flies easily with a 10' 80 grain tip (a poly leader won't do it). The fortunate thing is they use no bunny strips and gain a minimal amount of weight wet. My interest in converting to 3d stems from a desire to eliminate extra reels, reel spools, extra tips and polyleaders. It may be that I'll need to continue with the airflo with a tip If I find that the 480 is the right 3d for the 8 wt. and it is incapable of casting large unweighted intruders.
480gr sounds extremely light weight for an 8wt. I like a minimal of 540gr

I find it doesn’t matter wether I put on a tip or just a long leader, you just find a line that works and you are good to go.

in my opinion, a lot of obsession goes into finding the ‘perfect’ weight. But in my experience, that doesn’t matter nearly as much as finding a solid rod/line combo for your liking.
I have a 13’6” 8wt that will cast 540-570 scandi easily.......doesn’t matter if there is a tip or not. A few slight adjustments is all that is needed.
Likewise, I can cast 570-630 skagits, same story on tips
 

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480gr sounds extremely light weight for an 8wt. I like a minimal of 540gr

I find it doesn’t matter wether I put on a tip or just a long leader, you just find a line that works and you are good to go.

in my opinion, a lot of obsession goes into finding the ‘perfect’ weight. But in my experience, that doesn’t matter nearly as much as finding a solid rod/line combo for your liking.
I have a 13’6” 8wt that will cast 540-570 scandi easily.......doesn’t matter if there is a tip or not. A few slight adjustments is all that is needed.
Likewise, I can cast 570-630 skagits, same story on tips

1) One rod marked wt. 8 can be really 7/8 while other 8/9
2) casting style and/or rod taper will heavy influence Scandinavian head weight
3) Either floating head or F-H-I for obvious reasons need to be a bit heavier then H-I-S3 or I-S2-4.

For example I like casting using underhand cast with midiim to -fast tempo where most of the power come from the bottom hand. On a rod like CFB 8142-4 ( light 8/9 rod) depending on the sinking rate ( F, F-H-I or H-I-S3 I like Older Guideline 3D or Rio 3D in 535-550 gr range. The rod generates lots of line speed and is relatively firmer in the lower 1/3 of the blank then 8139-4.
On CFB 8139-4 ( true wt.8) which flexes more in the lower 1/3 of the blank to 814204, if I were using more of the top hand 510-520 Scandi would be perfect, but with underhand cast and medium-faster tempo I like 480-490 gr range.

In windy weather F-I + 10 foot tip ( CFB 8139-4 ) Nextcast Zone 525 gr ( head only) works perfectly with a bit slower tempo. At the same time when you slow done further 550 gr zone head looks good and such head can be better with very large fly.

When winds are moderate, wild fish is aggressive, water temps is 50-60 F and water clarity is at least good, there is no need to use super bulky and large flies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
480gr sounds extremely light weight for an 8wt. I like a minimal of 540gr

I find it doesn’t matter wether I put on a tip or just a long leader, you just find a line that works and you are good to go.

in my opinion, a lot of obsession goes into finding the ‘perfect’ weight. But in my experience, that doesn’t matter nearly as much as finding a solid rod/line combo for your liking.
I have a 13’6” 8wt that will cast 540-570 scandi easily.......doesn’t matter if there is a tip or not. A few slight adjustments is all that is needed.
Likewise, I can cast 570-630 skagits, same story on tips
Thanks for the input.
It appears that Rio is suggesting the 3d lines need to be lighter than floating scandi lines ( the 520 3d is rated as a 8/9, the 580 a 9/10 & the 480 a 7/8). What is your experience with 3d's?
I too have a 13'6" 8 wt. (sage one). I find it to be a little less particular than my 12'6" rods, however, it's a bit of a problem in standing waves on my frameless one man. The tip flails up and down and fouls the other rod in the holder. As a result, I'm trying to make everything work on the 12'6"s.

I often cast a 34' 510 Airflo scandi line with 80 grains of 10' mow lite tip (sacrilege, I know), In theory, a 580 3d should work on the meiser 12'6". I'll find out soon since our rivers are reopening at the end of this month.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
1) One rod marked wt. 8 can be really 7/8 while other 8/9
2) casting style and/or rod taper will heavy influence Scandinavian head weight
3) Either floating head or F-H-I for obvious reasons need to be a bit heavier then H-I-S3 or I-S2-4.

For example I like casting using underhand cast with midiim to -fast tempo where most of the power come from the bottom hand. On a rod like CFB 8142-4 ( light 8/9 rod) depending on the sinking rate ( F, F-H-I or H-I-S3 I like Older Guideline 3D or Rio 3D in 535-550 gr range. The rod generates lots of line speed and is relatively firmer in the lower 1/3 of the blank then 8139-4.
On CFB 8139-4 ( true wt.8) which flexes more in the lower 1/3 of the blank to 814204, if I were using more of the top hand 510-520 Scandi would be perfect, but with underhand cast and medium-faster tempo I like 480-490 gr range.

In windy weather F-I + 10 foot tip ( CFB 8139-4 ) Nextcast Zone 525 gr ( head only) works perfectly with a bit slower tempo. At the same time when you slow done further 550 gr zone head looks good and such head can be better with very large fly.

When winds are moderate, wild fish is aggressive, water temps is 50-60 F and water clarity is at least good, there is no need to use super bulky and large flies.
I'm thinking you may have hit something with 3d when you said "depending on the sink rate". Fastest rate may work better with a step down in weight or an increase in rod length?
 

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I'm thinking you may have hit something with 3d when you said "depending on the sink rate". Fastest rate may work better with a step down in weight or an increase in rod length?
faster sink rate = higher density ( mass per volume). Therefore such head cut through air easier and load a rod better than floating.
 

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Thanks for the input.
It appears that Rio is suggesting the 3d lines need to be lighter than floating scandi lines ( the 520 3d is rated as a 8/9, the 580 a 9/10 & the 480 a 7/8). What is your experience with 3d's?
I too have a 13'6" 8 wt. (sage one). I find it to be a little less particular than my 12'6" rods, however, it's a bit of a problem in standing waves on my frameless one man. The tip flails up and down and fouls the other rod in the holder. As a result, I'm trying to make everything work on the 12'6"s.

I often cast a 34' 510 Airflo scandi line with 80 grains of 10' mow lite tip (sacrilege, I know), In theory, a 580 3d should work on the meiser 12'6". I'll find out soon since our rivers are reopening at the end of this month.

.
I’ve never used the scandi 3D lines, but I have used several multi-density skagits and intermediate Scandoid. Not apples to apples, but probably similar per the question.

In general, yes, I like to step down in weight with those kind of heads. The only time I find you don’t need to is with really beefy rods......say a 13’ 10wt or 15’ 10wt.
 

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Yooper-Fly

True Scandinavian heads either floating or 3D are not Skagit or Scandoid. . Comparing Skagit and real Scandinavian head is like comparing 18 wheeler with Toyota Tacoma. Both are tracks but........Different casting techniques and more.

BTW, what the heck is Scandoid. Must be some marketing nonsense to attract anglers.
 

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I believe that a scandoid is a floating head whose forward taper splits the difference between a scandi and a skagit. An Airflo Rage is a scandoid. (And by the way, don't sneer when you speak the word. A compromise between extreme designs is often reasonable and useful.)
 
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