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Discussion Starter #1
Been playing around with this cast some along with a reverse snap T - likely (due to lack of coordination) I will never get left hand up so I am stuck with reverse casts over left shoulder - reverse snake on one side and reverse snap T on the other.

On reverse casts there is a great tendency to bring the rod tip up much closer to a vertical plane than you would on the same cast from the right shoulder. This not only can open up the D loop some but that last flip up will often cause the line to form a bloody L with the tip flipping up river.

Any thoughts on how to correct this stuff?
 

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Rick,

I held off responding for awhile; hopefully you get a better answer than this, 'cause this is really no answer at all...

My reverse single spey is better or at least more consistent than my regular single. I'm not positive what it is, but I believe it is because I keep the rod and line moving a little better--there's a bit of a circular motion as the rod goes back forming the D, so the tension is maintained better than with my regular river right single.

I'm not sure if/how this relates to a "tendency to bring the rod tip up much closer to a vertical plane," but it's working for me. If you don't gain anything from those thoughts, perhaps you could try a single instead of the Snap-T?

--Bill
 

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Rick,

I too am left hand challenged. Very challenged.

Have spent many hours casting reverse when the wind is blowing in a difficult direction. One tid bit of advice is to make sure your stance is the same as if you were casting left handed. I rotate my hips counterclockwise a little further than what I would casting left handed and that seems to help line everything up.

William
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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My left-up is much better than my reverse, but I practice it to stay able with it. My theory on that problem is that the caster has a harder time getting a sense of the d-loop's fullness and direction when the arms are crossed.

Two things I've noticed really help:

SparseHairHackl hit it on the head with the reverse single. What helped my reverse the most, although my left-up is my fishing cast, is to single spey to feel the "lane" where the line likes to go. Then hit that lane with the other casts.

I found that my reverse snap-t (river right, right hand up, upriver wind) doesn't have that problem but my reverse snake (river left, right up, downriver wind) definitely does if I am not careful. What I like to do whenever my snake is out of control is to start with a very small circle leading to a large d-loop that is lined up right, then increase the circle to make the cast easier.

Good luck!
 

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RIck,

You shouldn't feel stuck with a reverse cast - cast with your best hand. Derek Brown said while he can certainly cast with his left hand up, he will go with the reverse when he wants the most distance. Mike Maxwell, in his book states that the reverse shoulder casts, as he calls them, will become your favourite - if not best casts. This is certainly the case for me.

While I don't advocate the rod at absolute vertical, the default position of the hands in the reverse cast creates the perfect launching point. Due to the cross-handed nature of the cast your hands have no choice but to be properly located. As an added bonus the position virtually forces the increased use of the "bottom" hand which tightens up the loop.

The "open" loop you refer to is not really any more open than when the cast is more sidearm - it just appears to be more open. When the cast is launched a little more sideways the view of the loop is very narrow - it is in fact just as open as the vertically oriented one (sorry to spill the beans casting instructors).

As for the bloody L, that is normally the result of not starting the spiral motion of the cast first toward the bank behind you. This motion will force the anchor to land oriented toward your target and as long as you finish the spiral in the same plane there will be no bloody L.

Maybe these explanations will be easier to see with the video Dana took check http://speypages.com/speypages.htm
Click on casting videos, Kush on the Reverse Snake.
 

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Great Video

Download it to watch repeatedly and analyze it. Wish we could all do that when needed Tyler. I did it with the original version and still use it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Tyler,
I was hoping you would respond as from your past posts I know you are a strong advocate for reverse casts. Will spend time looking at the video. I will also try your comments to get rid of the bloody L - the thing that drives me up the wall the most.

Thanks also to other posters - time to get back out on the water and revisit this stuff - assuming I can get out of all the meetings that keep me going until 9 at night!!!

Hope to get to the Umpqua next week for a few days!!
 

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Tyler, I've looked at this video sequence quite closely, and it appears to me that you are doing the windup on the left but the launch comes more from the right. Am I correct in my observation?
 

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BeBop,

I am lauching on the left, it may be very close to over my left eye, I try to start the motion with my top hand's wrist almost brushing my left temple. In looking at the clip after you mention this, I can see how it does look a little like I switch it to the right - I think it is just the slight camera angle.

What this does point out is the high firing point and the use of the bottom hand in the cast. Sometimes I need to remind myself that this is what my right shoulder casts should look more like. Just yesterday a small group of us were out testing some rods and one of my observant companions noted that my right shoulder firing point was not as high as my left shoulder one. I corrected it and the right shoulder cast flew much higher above the water with the same tight loop as the reverse one.
 

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BeBop,

In re-reading my above post I noted that I said I try to have my bottom hand brush my right temple - I think I must be experiencing late-onset dyslexia - it is my left temple that I am talking about - sorry about the confusion :eyecrazy:
 

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I got your point Tyler. Thanks for the clarification.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well, spent two solid days and an early morning on the Umpqua - great casting practice and managed to spend lots of time working on the reverse casts as I had no fish rudely interrupting my casting practice!!! Actually, the last cast of the last morning did the trick - nice though small wild fish around 6#

As a follow up question, when you do a reverse cast, the normal upper hand position would be with the back of the hand forward and I have seen a number of casters complete the forward stroke casting this way, with the back of the hand leading the cast. I know in my discussions with tyler, he indicated he did not think this as a strong hand position. Do others use this or do you rotate your wrist so hand is on top?
 
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My back of the hand leads the forward cast. I agree with Tyler that that is probably not ideal, but it is what seems to be natural for me. I have to concentrate too much on rotating the wrist to do it that way when I fish. When I practice I try to develop the rotated wrist as a habit, but it just doesn't seem want to happen.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Interesting question, I checked to see what the heck I do while casting reverse today and found that the thumb is still very much operative in pushing the handle to load the rod and my hand does not turn backhand during the reverse snake. BUT when doing the reverse snap-t or double spey my hand turns to a backhand angle due to the sweep around and the bottom hand does way more work. The role of the thumb changes probably because the sweep around is so prominent across the opposite shoulder with these two verses the snake.

Therefore I concluded that if the bottom hand is used with more force the upper hand thumb can sit out the dance and the cast will travel just as well with the upper hand used as a fulcrum only - an backhand / underhand technique. I watched the Wiconsin boys do the backhand laser very effectively at the Muskegon clave and they use a fully backhanded pull method with Windcutter lines. Nice cast to have in the quiver because the wedge is so sharp it cuts through gale force winds.

All things being equal, I would prefer the left-handed snake roll over reverse snake because I'm much more comfortable with the left-up than crossed-over. I tend to come close to my ear occasionally with the reverse snake unless I am really paying attention. I will keep practicing it until I remove that little defect nonetheless.

Watching Kush, I know it's a real powerhouse cast! :eyecrazy:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Finally got the reverse snake down and the trick at least for me was body position. Normally, you face the direction you want the cast to go - for the reverse snake that would have you facing across stream - in this position, you need to bring your upper (right) hand across the body - I have a tendency in this position to bring the set up (firing position) high - this often causes the tip to flip behind me some and bring the line too close to the body and also seems to cause the back and forward cast to be in different planes which can kick the tip up river on the forward cast. I think the main reason is there is a tendency to rotate the wrist when coming up to the firing position out to the side rather than keeping it on top of the grip. This rotation causes the rod tip to kick behind you.

By standing facing down river, your hands are out in front of you and it is much easier to keep the casting strokes in a straight plane. Sure made a huge differnece in my reverse casts.
 

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Rick,

I have been through this process of fine tuning the reverse snake. I find that the natural tendency is to square your shoulders downstream. Firstly you will "follow" the swing of the fly and secondly, as you point out it promotes a little more freedom for your arms while in the cross-body position.

The downside of this stance is that the casting plane is now right across your body, from shoulder to shoulder. For me, this manifested itself as a disconcerting tendency to stick myself with the fly. I recall spending the better part of an afternoon trying to figure out why this happened. I was setting the D-loop directly behind my shoulder and on the forward stroke the line had to pass over my shoulders - man, I was developing a serious chuck and duck complex :whoa:

I solved the problem by planting my feet facing my target and twisting my torso to face downriver. This allowed me the ability to make the set-up motions (as you point out), then as I set the D-loop I twist my torso back square to my target. This motion does two things; first it keeps the cast from flowing across my body and hitting me, secondly, it increase the power of the cast. It is the same principle as opening the hips when you swing a baseball bat, or throw a ball. The hips open toward the target then the torso whips through behind it.

If you check the aforementioned video, you can see this motion just as I start the forward stroke. It is subtle, but I think it is a significant factor in the power of the cast.
 

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Junkyard Spey
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The downside of this stance is that the casting plane is now right across your body, from shoulder to shoulder. For me, this manifested itself as a disconcerting tendency to stick myself with the fly. I recall spending the better part of an afternoon trying to figure out why this happened. I was setting the D-loop directly behind my shoulder and on the forward stroke the line had to pass over my shoulders - man, I was developing a serious chuck and duck complex
Kush, Thank you for sharing this advice. I know very well the manifestation and the C & D complex you speak of. I figured out why this cast is called the Snake Roll. I get the first roll all right but the second one always seems to snake itself around my head 2 or 3 times. I'll try your advice tonight. Take care, MJC
 
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