Spey Pages banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Here we go again!
Joined
·
620 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Wow, just heard that Rajeff and Loop parted company. Not sure if that makes sense since it is Danielsson who pulled the plug on the reels and not Loop. Not wanting to sell Loop rods and lines because their reel producer bailed on them just denies the rest of the great product line to US consumers who were going through flyshops to purchase these items anyway. Refuse to sell Danielsson, OK, but why punish Loop and their followers?
 
J

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hey Moose,

I understand your concern, but there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye. I'm sure Tim only broke off the deal when he felt he really had no other choice. As I stated on a previous post, he stands to lose an enormous amount of money over this. In addition, he is still the distributor until February 11. It is quite likely that Loop will have a new distributor on board by then. The switch between Florida and Washington last October/November was just about seamless, and I expect the same will happen this time. It'll be interesting to see how many dealers stay on board after this. Molly, at Rajeff Sports, said that some dealers who had called there were really angry. It's possible, if not likely, that Loop has suffered a blow here for which it might take years for it to recover.
 

·
Indicators Anonymous
Joined
·
846 Posts
As taken from www.rajeffsports.com

Dear Friends,

It is with a sad and weary heart that we announce that as of today, January 21, 2005, we will no longer be the Loop Distributor within the United States . A few days ago we were notified that Danielsson Innovation, the manufacturer of Loop Tackle's fly reels, would no longer be making reels for Loop and instead selling the same reels directly to consumers. This was a serious blow to the countless fly shops and individuals who have worked hard to make Loop a recognized brand worldwide.

One of our primary goals at Rajeff Sports is to promote the long-term health of the industry. The growth of Fly Fishing as a whole insures the growth of several core ideas we value; conservation, responsible fisheries, and the continuation of the grand tradition of Fly Fishing. Rajeff Sports has always seen the relationship between the Fly Shops and the Consumers as the key to healthy growth and development for the industry. The fly shops are valuable sources of information, places to learn about fishing, casting, and products. If every manufacturer bypassed the fly shops, the dealers would cease to exist. This would seriously diminish the growth of our industry, as well as the quality of services and products available to the consumer. As such, Rajeff Sports will continue to support the fly shops with the Airflo and Echo brand of products.


I highlighted what I felt were some key points. Tim is one the nicest guys in the Industry and really saddened me to see the situation that Tim was faced with. Tim should be commended for doing what is right.

This is about much more then just reels....

It seems as in the past few years, the Industry has begun to turn it's back on the Dealers and the Pro Shop concept. Tim refused to give into the pressure because of reasons that he mentioned....the strength and well-being of the sport depends upon the Pro Shop. Thank you Tim! And thank you to the other manfucatures that follow the same philosphy as Tim.
 

·
Here we go again!
Joined
·
620 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I understand the hardship on the dealers who may not be able to move stock and have to take a hit. That is a very tough thing that happened to them. I guess some explaination of what and why would clear up why Rajeff doesn't want to carry any of the Loop product line, not that it's really any of my business. I own and enjoy some Loop products and just want to be able to continue to do so. More importantly, though, I like to see stabillity in the business for everyones sake. Guess there's a lot more to it than "The producers pulled out".
 
J

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Congratulations Rick. You needed only four words to convey the message that took me an entire paragraph to attempt to make the same point.
 

·
#&%*@^# Caster
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
A little devils advocate here...

Been thinking about this over the weekend and am not sure why everyone is roasting Loops feet over the fire on this. I can guarentee they are not the ones that decided to end the association with danielsson. Loop is one of the few companies out there that provides a full lineup of branded fishing equipment (reels,lines, rods, clothing, hooks, etc). It would be impossible for them to have such a full lineup without outsourcing the manfacturing. If the folks that make Sage's reels terminated thier agreement would we all be calling for thier throats?

The factories in Korea that make CND, TFO and others could stop making them at any time. That is the inherent danger of outsourcing and Loop was burned in this case. Now it seems everyone is more than happy to kick them while they are down which seems unfair.

An outsider as myself sees Rajeff's decision a purely business one. Loops reels were the top seller by far of thier product line in the US. Take that away and it was no longer lucrative to be associated with them, plus Loop minus the reels is defintely not what Rajeff Sports signed up to carry. I do not blame them from walking away, I would have done the same. A stern warning that Loop is helping undermine the fly shops seems a little much. Maybe that warning was meant to be directed to Danielsson but it sure did not read that way.

Of course this situation is a little cloudy because no one knows the whole story as Loop has yet to comment. Thier lack of response on this issue has been somewhat curious.

I am not affiliated in anyway with Loop and this is just my personal observation.

An underlying message though in all of this is the industry is going to have to revisit the whole MRSP thing. Obviously consumers are starting to call BS on marking up equipment as high as 40% in shops.

I understand the need for shops and throw a couple grand a year thier way for gear I could get much cheaper and even free in some cases. I feel it is my part to keep them going as they are a nice thing to have around. But I am quickly becoming the minority. Shops and manafacturers are going to have to adapt sooner or later or become obsolete. The days of the $1000 rod and $800 reel are coming to an end and it will be interesting to see where the industry goes in the next 10 years. Pre-2000 the notion of value priced gear was laughable. Look how much things have changed in just 5 years. Almost every manafacturer has adopted a low end product line to meet consumer demand.

The core issue here is not factory direct sales...this is just a symptom.

-sean
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
The factories in Korea that make CND, TFO and others could stop making them at any time. That is the inherent danger of outsourcing and Loop was burned in this case.

Sean --

There is a big difference between, for example, CND / rod manufacturer and Loop/Danielssn.
In the case CND, Nabudo has designed the rods and Korean manufacturer is just making them.
Without Nabudo CND rods like Specialsit or Solstice series would never exist.

In the case of Loop/Danielsson, the manufacturer has invented, designed and produces the reels.
Loop was just distributor.
 

·
#&%*@^# Caster
Joined
·
3,058 Posts
Yes I know it was a stretch but the same logic applies where if you are having anyone else make your product, whether you designed it or not, you always run the risk of all the sudden not having access to the product.

-sean
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
Salmo,

This is exactly why I think Sean is right on with his comments about Loop not being the bad guy here. Loop didn't design the reels, not does it hold the patents or manufacturing rights on them, they simply were the distributor of them and added the Loop name.

I also think Sean is correct about MSRP. I agree that MSRP is needed on low-to-mid-priced items in order for the shops to get a reasonable monetary profit. However, with high-priced items, does a shop really need to make 40% on a $900.00 rod? The dollar amount of profit on that $900.00 rod is $360.00. Can't a shop stay in business if it sells such a rod for $750.00? Afterall, it would still make $170.00 in gross profit from it at $750.00. And if a shop sells a $300.00 rod, the standard 40% is entirely reasonable since it would make $120.00. Selling the high end rods and reels at less than 40% markup should also result in selling a few more of them because they become more affordable to more people.

And let us not forget that the bread and butter of a shop is not the high end rods and reels, it is the things that get used up or wear out most often-i.e. fly lines, leaders, tippets, flies, tying materials, waders, wading shoes, hooks, books, etc. I'm sure most of the folks reading this have spent a lot more on the mundane tying materials, hooks, waders, wading shoes, fly lines, etc. over the last 10 years than on rods. For instance, when you visit a new area and stop in a local shop, what do you buy? A new rod, I think not. A new reel, again I think not. Some flies, probably. Some tippet, most likely. Etc.
 

·
Here we go again!
Joined
·
620 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Flytyer

I agree with you to a point. One thing you'll notice about a modern flyshop over one from several years back is that there are more people working in the shops and far more services being offered. I remember going into fly shops and having to wait around quite a while to get any kind of service. Usually 1 or maybe on a weekend 2 guys working. Now you go in and there are several guys working who will walk the shop with you helping you try on waders, talk about flies for certain waters, help you learn to tie a blood knot, etc. Labor is a huge expense. Eventhough the industry has grown dramatically and so, it seems, have the margins, the expense of providing service is a big one. The large chunk a fly shop might get when a guy walks in and buys a rod or reel is likely eaten up by servicing all the guys who spend an hour there and buy $12 bucks worth of tippet.

I do look for deals on tackle, and am guilty (if you want to call it that) of buying from independant builders like Meiser and small companies like CND. I just don't feel that a Sage or Scott is worth the 25% higher cost (although a new LS2 rod @$595 may now find it's way into my quiver). I do also want to say that this is not because I don't feel the shops are worth the $$ you have to spend there. If I could have walked in and bought the Meiser or CND off the shelf for a bit more I would have. There's a difference between percieved value and cheapness. My local flyshop gets about all of my business on all other items I need, if they have them. I value what they do for me, but we all know there are rules they have to follow regarding what they carry and what they must charge if they want to do business with the big makers who supply the majority of anglers. Many in this forum do not fit into the category "Majority of Anlgers", we're really specialists. We require gear that is often not found on the shelves of everyday shops.

Once the hit the dealers take on the Loop reels is long past I think that Danielsson will just be another item the specialist will look elsewhere for because it is just 1 more thing you can't find in your local shop. I will likely buy a Danielsson or 2 because they are now in the price range I'm comfortable with. I think my local shop will survive due to all the newbies buying Sage rods and Orvis reels and the like.
 

·
Pullin' Thread
Joined
·
4,694 Posts
Moose,

Yep, we here are most certainly a "niche" in fly fishing. We use 2-hand rods that we demand they perform well in close and out beyond where most single hand casters could even dream about casting to. Most of us also fish exclusively or nearly exclusively for steelhead or salmon. Very different folks indeed from the average fly fisher. And our needs in tying materials and hooks are no less esoteric. We buy BEP, Whiting Spey Hackle, AJ spey hooks, salmon irons in sizes from #3/0 down to #10's, blind eye hooks, seals fur dubbing, flourescent dubbing, silk floss, duck flank for hackle, rhea feathers, etc., stuff my trout fly fishing brother and father in Pennsylvania think are very weird materials, but these are normal for us.

Add to this that the vast majority of us have a good idea of what we like and why we like it. And very few of us have a problem with paying the price for the rods we like, even if it means we forego doing something or buying something else to get them. We are also the folks who will go look to find a dealer who carries what we want in rods, or will go to the custom builders like Meiser or Burkheimer if we can't find what we want in an off the shelf rod.

However, usually when we find a dealer that carries things we use, we become pretty loyal to him and buy from him to the exclusion of a closer shop because he had what we needed. Aferall, there aren't a lot of retailers carrying the things we buy, so we also pass the word on to others we know or meet about the shop that has what what we use.
 

·
Here we go again!
Joined
·
620 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Well said!

flytyer said:
...when we find a dealer that carries things we use, we become pretty loyal to him and buy from him to the exclusion of a closer shop because he had what we needed. Aferall, there aren't a lot of retailers carrying the things we buy, so we also pass the word on to others we know or meet about the shop that has what what we use.



In addition to being loyal to my local Sacramento fly shop (Kiene's) I am also loyal to a flyshop I consider local because it is found here, in our little Speyclave family, and treats us like family.

www.redshedflyshop.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
Consider further what CND did with spey rods. Nobuo’s design, attention to detail and quality, but drastically reduced production costs that allowed a performance rod to be sold in the U.S. and elsewhere at greatly reduced prices.

Now suppose this transformation were to occur with reels. I know, many will say it has already occurred. But suppose a blow-you-away design, with attention to detail and quality, matched with drastically reduced production costs was in the works by a company to introduce a line of reels at greatly reduced prices.

Now consider Danielsson, knowing this was coming, and seeing their own $400 reels being sold for $800 after markup. “Hmm, I wonder what will happen to our sales when these new reels with hit the market?” Their forecasts identify significant sales declines are imminent.

This motivates Danielsson to seek changes in their 20-year agreement with Loop. They need to change the markup model/percentages to remain competitive. In the end, a falling out occurs, and they go separate ways.

Just my $.02 based entirely on no facts at all.
 
M

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Have you ever cosidered that Danielsson's contract with LOop ended, they got greedy, seeing their reels, that they sell for 400 going on retail at 800. Of couse they might have considered that now they don't have a world wide distribution system, aka Loop and their agents and retailers.
So they might find that selling direct has its draw backs, they have no product out there in the market place for folks to look at and put their sticky fingers on.
Loop got the reels accepted by anglers, at a high cost over the years and now Danilesson want to grab that and run with it.
Its OK to manufacture a reel and just ship it off to a company to sell, but when you have to sell it yourself the chickens come home to roost very quickly.The price will have to go up from that 400 buks, because the end result has never been factored into costs. But thats evolution. Max
 

·
JD
Joined
·
3,609 Posts
All of us are right

Obviously, neither Loop nor Rajeff sports are to fault here. And since we don't know the full story, I'm not sure it is fair to blame Danielsson yet. Danielsson will have to deal with marketing problems. Loop will come up with another reel. Rajeff Sports I'm sure, will continue to offer us products of value. Life goes on.

There has to be a place in the world, in the fly fishing industry as well, for direct sales. And proof of this lies with the guys like Bob Meiser, William Olson, Leroy McNeese, etc. The relationship between manufacturer, flyshop, and consumer, however, must be cultivated to the satifaction of all involved.

The pro shop concept was, and still is, a valid thing. And MSRP as well. Although,,,,,40 to 50% markup across the board???? Pros & cons I am sure. It's just that I, for one, cannot afford the prices of some of this high end stuff being offered today.

And like Russ said, we who chase steel with the long rod are a niche, within a niche, within a niche market. We can hardly expect our local fly shop to stock each & every item item out there,,,,,just in case we someday decide,,,,,,maybe,,,,we want it.

If Danielsson, or anyone else, chooses to offer direct sales, that is their perogative. But if they want their product on display at a shop somewhere, then arrangemants must be made to allow the shop to sell at a competive price and still receive adequate compensation.

Just my $.02 worth,,,the way I see it.
 

·
Relapsed Speyaholic
Joined
·
5,475 Posts
I would respectfully submit that after the number of posts this has received, this horse might be quite dead and should be allowed to rest in peace.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
A stern warning that Loop is helping undermine the fly shops seems a little much. Maybe that warning was meant to be directed to Danielsson but it sure did not read that way.

Of course this situation is a little cloudy because no one knows the whole story as Loop has yet to comment. Thier lack of response on this issue has been somewhat curious.

-sean
Take this with a grain of salt as I am not in the industry, a good friend is. He talked to Joe of Loop USA and while they will still sell to insignificant amount of shop, Loop Europe wants a factory direct market. So while you may find a shop in your state that sells loop, loop has abandoned fly shops %99 for factory direct (you never could tell at the prices they are selling!!)

Also, CND, as I have been told, does not have their products made in the third world country of Korea but in the first world country of japan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
The factories in Korea that make CND, TFO and others could stop making them at any time. That is the inherent danger of outsourcing and Loop was burned in this case.

Sean --

There is a big difference between, for example, CND / rod manufacturer and Loop/Danielssn.
In the case CND, Nabudo has designed the rods and Korean manufacturer is just making them.
Without Nabudo CND rods like Specialsit or Solstice series would never exist.

QUOTE]

It looks like a owe Sean a apology. My friends in the industry told me that all CND products were made in Japan. Sorry Sean

(ps, only replying to this old message because it came up under my google search of "loop zspey", which loopusa apparently doesnt have on their page!
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top