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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guy's
In preparing for the test, I've been working on different anchor placements.
I've have , too much stick, the bloody "L" and crumpled anchor down pretty well, just having problems being consistent in skipping or pulling my anchor. Could use some advise on how to do this consistently.
Thanks
Rick
 

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JD
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pulling/skipping anchor

When you get this figured out, please let me know the answer. I had a day last week when I couldn't get a decent anchor to save my a**. I was using a ten foot sink tip and they usually stick like glue. The fly was an aticulated bunny leech. And that thing would just slide across the surface like snot on a door knob. :whoa:
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Put the petal to the metal. Overpowering your cast should get you the desired results.
 

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JD
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more power

MJC said:
Put the petal to the metal. Overpowering your cast should get you the desired results.
Assume you are refering to Rick rather than me. Been there, done that. Changed to a "normal" fly and the problem went away. Maybe the bunny leech needs some dumbell eyes or else needs to be Skagit cast?
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Yes, to Rick's post. I used to have a lot of trouble with pulling the anchor. When I finally backed off on the power things started working a little more like they should. It may still be ugly but I don't spend nearly as much time getting my fly out of the bank side brush. :whoa:
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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The two key factors are timing and excessive force. The easiest way to produce a pulled anchor is to (1) start forward too early. Simply hit it hard just before the anchor can possibly land and it will kick out like a wild mule. Another is to use (2) too much force in either direction, ironically more likely the backcast from what I have observed.

Why?

The anchor relies on a subtle descent from flight to kiss the water. If you start the forward power stroke too early, this gentle descent never occurs, or at least not fully.

Details:

The force of the forward stroke must not reach the far end of the line before this descent begins ot it will force a continuation of flight (no descent) and pull the anchor out from under us like a rug when the rest of the forward power stroke comes into play. In other words the descent is cancelled out.

It takes a fraction of a second for the brunt of the forward stroke to reach the other end of the line after the rod moves forth, and this pause is among the most important elements of timing in all of Spey casting.

Likewise, if too much force is used in the backcast the same occurs because the bottom half of the d-loop will just keep flying without descent to the water, even if the timing is good - you wait for something that never occurs.

Case in point - snap-t / circle spey...

This setup motion is done by 'pulling' the line into a straight line movement toward the upriver direction, then 'pushing' the near end of the working length of line in the opposite direction. This opposing tension is so amplified that the line snaps tight above the water in the trademark, "chicks dig it" fashion (re: Dec Hogan nomenclature). This is in fact the same as an anchor kicking out in principle, except that a snap-t 'pushes underneath the pull' where a pulled anchor involves opposing tension above.

In fact I've observed that many folks just learning the snap-t for the first time mistakingly oppose to the top, which is natural because that's how we cast. What results is a forcefully pulled anchor!

Additional notes:

1) There are several other ways to cause it, for instance (3) an excessive lift at the end of the d-loop pulling the d-loop out of shape, making it unlikely a good anchor will result (unless the bottom hand trunks, common with high arm raisers which causes excess anchor). Any motion that disrupts or deforms the gentle descent of the bottom half of the d-loop will likely have a poor result when the forward stroke's power reaches it.

2) The anchor is such a critical element because it complements the weight and momentum of the line to support the 180 degree reversal of direction. In Spey casting, things take time to happen. Although measured in fractions of a second, the anchor affords momentary stability during the interval of time it takes for the d-loop to transform itself into the actual cast.

3) When considering too much anchor as well as too little - a shorter denser line has a wider margin of error in stroke timing than a longer line matched to the same rod. However it's easier to pull the anchor with the shorter line because of the application of power influences the other end of the line quickly. When casting long belly lines it's important to stay in sync with the anchor by starting forward early enough. Fortunately the added mass and resistance present with extended belly lines (when in motion) allows this and when the timing is right it all works out. Interestingly it's quite easy to pull the anchor on an extended belly line as well using the same principles, e.g.: snap-t.

From one instructor to another - good luck with your test.
 

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sorry

Rick, if only you had asked me last week when we fished, I could have saved you time by giving you the answers!! Hope to be certified myself by 2035!! :chuckle:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Juilan
fly on the dangle, lift, sweep, rise, watch for the anchor, then fire. If that does'nt work go get your STR-1384-C and kick butt.
Rick
 

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Would suggest a couple of things to try. Trunking, or flying butt is same term for what I think is the issue thats causing your skipping anchor. To avoid, keep the bottom hand still when setting up your anchor. Don't kick the bottom hand out at this point, keep it close to your body. The other is application of power. Watch the speed you at which you are moving the rod to form the d loop. The rod will make some noise to let you know that you are going to fast.
Leroy.................................
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Leroy
Thanks for your reply. I have a question for you, if you "Trunk" would you not drive the tip down while forming your "D" Loop ? Would this falling of the tip not cause too much stick ?
Rick
 

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Hi Rick, Depends when you do the trunking, if you do it without a lift this will lead to lot of line stick, a falling tip If you do it after the lift you will accelerate the line and over shoot your anchor.
Try casting and keeping your bottom hand still. A little exercise for this is for a single spey or even a switch cast is make your lift swing around to the side by rotating your trunk and then stop. See if you can make a set your anchor that way. Got this from a friend of yours.
Leroy................
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hi Leroy
Not quite getting this. Are you using the bottom hand to steer the tip ? Is the upper most hand staying still after the rise (using it as a pivot point) ?
Would you please give me a little more detail on how to do this.
Interesting point
Thanks Rick
 

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Hi Rick, You are "spot on" use the bottom hand to steer the tip. Watch some of Dana's vids D Loop and V Loop. Watch his hands. You will notice that he moves the bottom hand from the left of his belly button to the right of it. The right hand stays still at the firing position and is used as a guide at this point. In Dana's vids he is using his version of an under hand stroke to work with longer lines. This is one of the three ways that I know of to cast a Double handed rod.
Simons book deals with casting with the faster rods and has helped me a lot.
I have been teaching my self to cast with the non- dominant hand up and find that I had to re-learn some of the basics that I take for granted. All of them are important, but the two that seemed to help put things in order were, the grip and foot position.
Are you starting to cast with your left hand up yet?
Hope things are much clearer.
Leroy.........................
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Speyrd -

I am trying to visualize your explanation. By 'after the lift' do you mean the intial lift off the water or the drifting rise after the sweep as the d-loop forms?

thanks
 

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Juro, The move is done during the drifting raise after the sweep as the "D" loop is forming. Accelerate the bottom hand with a short snap as the rod gets into the firing position. This works well with faster rods(T&T's) have not tried it much with full flexing rods.
Am teaching my self to cast with my left hand up. What a learning experience, it's all about the bascis.
Leroy...................
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Thanks for the reply.

I was referring to the trunking you mentioned as cause for pulled anchor, not powering the backcast. I've found trunking to be a cause of excessive stick (vs pulled anchor) during the formation of the d-loop as Rick also mentioned.

This is because the energy directed by the rod tip descends downward when the rod butt rises, releasing the tension on the top half of the d-loop between the rod tip and the wedge thus in essence 'deflating' the d-loop.

I use the analogy of a train with the engine pulling the caboose along. This is easy to visualize during the initial lift and sweep back, but there is still tension as the d-loop forms when the engine stops to let the caboose swing 'round into a tight d-loop.

If the front of the 'train' loses tension the caboose drops very quickly and all that momentum has to go somewhere, usually into the water. A trunk causes the engine to stall thus the bottom half of the loop correspondingly decelarates creating a huge anchor that is impossible to cast.

However I might have missed something or misinterpreted your point. It's always good to discuss these details, contemplation whether right or wrong usually leads one to ferret out the right answer eventually.

.02
 

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Juro, My thoughts were if you have to much speed in the lift , you dip the rod tip to set the anchor and finish off with a trunk move on a rising rod which will add more speed. This will pull the anchor and place it way behind you.

I like your anaology of the train. Will have to try and remember these types of things for my up coming test and my students.

I had a student that was pulling and skiping his anchor. He thought that the anchor was the little spot where his yarn touched on the water as in splash and go. The only thing he did was keep on going backwards as in loading the rod for an overhead cast.

Hopefully this will lead to more discussions and maybe we will ferret out some the right answers.
Leroy..........................
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Thanks Leroy!

I see that I was not understanding your earlier post but you've cleared it up for sure. I'll see you at one of the upcoming claves.
 
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