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Norwegian speyfanatic
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was out in the river today practising with my new Carron 95' line. Single spey and snakeroll is going very well with this line, but I have problems performing a nice circle spey with this long line. It works nice if I strip in enough line to hold on the tickest part, but when holding on the thinnest part of the tapering with practically all the belly outside of the rings, the leader is anchored way to far upstream and results in too much resistance on the water when casting forward. I tried to do it really slow to limit the amount of line thrown upstream, but found it very difficult.

Anyone who have the secret tip about how to do the cast with the whole belly out of the rings? Or is this cast limited to the mid belly lines for us normal people?
 

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Relapsed Speyaholic
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I might get beat up for this but in my opinion, long bellied lines (those > 80') do not lend themselves well to the snap-T or Circle Spey of for that matter the double spey. I imagine it has to do with too much anchor and the arc required to sweep all that line up and into a D-loop.
 

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Probably just a Spey casting line, not much good for Circle cast perry pokes Skagit dumps or planet casts.

These short days when I'm not fishing make me so short tempered.
 

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Mr. Mom
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625 Posts
Well this has worked for me as a quick on the river fix when transitioning from short to longbelly lines. I definitely slow down the setup stroke, but I also exagerate how far downsteam and into shore I move the rod tip. I am actually throwing line "behind me" meaning at about forty five degrees down and inshore. This shortens the amount of line upstream of me a little. As I said I don't do this on a regular basis, but when moving from a skagit line to a long line (for wide even flowing runs where I want to cover as much water as possible) it has helped me manage the first 5 to 10 casts before I get my rythm.
 

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Jack Cook
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Well

I don't use it much but I have to teach it. This summer I had a chap who did it much like we used to. Rather than Snap the rod down and under he simply raised the rod slowly and then cast the line completely upstream. Then on that straight, tight line he performed a perfect Double on the upstream side. What I like about this approach, besides the slowing down, is the fact the I can place the line at any angle above me I wish. If you angle it out across the river a ways then it is easy to cast it back down at 45 degrees rather than just straight back out at 90 degrees.

The fact that there is no snap or down movement makes it work very well with longer lines. The radius is as big as your rod.

This cast is done so slowly I like to call it the Beautiful or Poetic T rather than Snap T
 

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Carron 95' line

Willie Gunn,
The carron lines are perfect for the Planet cast, most long belly lines are based on Alexander Grants line, and the planet cast was the cast he used to set a world record, not a cast invented in the last 5yrs, but a cast from over 100 yrs ago , from Scotland and used on the Ness.
Then again you did say you had never heard of it so i suppose, you would'nt know if the Carron lines where suitable or not.:saevilw:
Gordon.
 

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Willie Gunn said:
Probably just a Spey casting line, not much good for Circle cast perry pokes Skagit dumps or planet casts.

These short days when I'm not fishing make me so short tempered.
Just where in the above post did I say the planet cast was invented in the last 5 years? It is just when I visit a "speycasting forum" I expect to read about Spycasting, on a planet casting forum I would expect every thread to mention a planet cast
I cannot understand this percieved advantage in not stripping line. A couple of weeks ago when I was fishing, not casting, the line froze to the rod and a could not retreive at the end of the swing, very strange not giving the fish the one last encourgement to take.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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McIntyre -

This is in effect a bloody-L when you sweep it around. My first question would be "how is your snap-C/T with this line?" My second would be "please show me a double-spey" because the post-circle position of everything should be nearly identical to your double before you sweep.

If the same thing happens with the snap as circle, then it's a matter of the force and float time you are allowing on the pull and push moves. Both of these casts use a pull upriver as well as a push of the rod back downriver toward where the dangle once was. You should be able to place the end of the flyline where you want with a circle/snap cast provided the rod is suited to the line and you apply a balanced amount of force to suit the situation.

But here's the rub - both the pull and the push in these casts moves the end of the line upriver. Therefore it's important to manage these in concert to place the anchor.

Upon lift, think about gliding the far end of the line over the water toward the upriver anchor. Only use enough pull force to move the end of the line halfway to the target. Huh? How does that put the end of the line at anchor? It DOESNT - the push takes it the rest of the way.

Thus while the line is still gliding upriver, push the rod back toward the dangle to pull even more against the line thus moving the end of the line the rest of the way.

If the anchor flies upriver, then either the pull force or the push force or both were too strong to place it. Usually a combination of both are to blame.

Now I simplified by saying half and half... sometimes you will need more pull than push or vice-versa... but my point is the force applied by the two phases = the force needed to put the anchor in the proper place.

A circle would incorporate more of an inclined climbing angle whereas the snap would track on a more horizontal plane, but unless you are in need of moving a sunken dangle a moderate compromise angle will do just fine.

Also since the next move following this is to sweep the line around, the shape of the rest of the head should accomodate the sweep.

I would add that often the anchor position is more accomodating than the final d-loop technique. In my experience the most common thing robbing the circle, snap or double from final casting power (after trunking) is over-rotation of the rod tip past the 5 o'clock stop position.

However the bloody-L is also a common problem, and if you tune both of these in you should be good to go regardless of the head length.

These are points I make while teaching the snap and circle Spey casts and based on the ah-ha's I get from students I believe this pull/push balance is the key to managing anchor position with this class of cast.

Good luck with the pursuit, these are useful and fun casts to know.
 

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Norwegian speyfanatic
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197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Willie Gunn said:
Just where in the above post did I say the planet cast was invented in the last 5 years? It is just when I visit a "speycasting forum" I expect to read about Spycasting, on a planet casting forum I would expect every thread to mention a planet cast
I cannot understand this percieved advantage in not stripping line. A couple of weeks ago when I was fishing, not casting, the line froze to the rod and a could not retreive at the end of the swing, very strange not giving the fish the one last encourgement to take.
I agree, even when fishing with long belly lines I like two strip a few yards of line before making a new cast. If the current is slow I strip the first yds very slowly before the fly has swing all the way to my bank to speed it up. But if I strip into the thick belly I can't cast as long as if I had the belly outside the rings. Not that it's so common that I need to cast more than 100 feets.

After what I have understood about steelhead fishing the steelhead does not take the fly when you strip line as often as for the salmon, so that might explain why many steelheaders don't shoot any line.
 

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Norwegian speyfanatic
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you for a good explanation, Juro!

Guess I need to go back to the river tomorrow and try it over again.

I don't use the snap-T alot, but it was going a little better than the circle cast. I guess these two cast are really to simple to perform with a shooting head or short belly to really get into the hard timings necessary with a long belly line. But I guess with a few days of practice things will go better now that I know what to practice on.

juro said:
McIntyre -

This is in effect a bloody-L when you sweep it around. My first question would be "how is your snap-C/T with this line?" My second would be "please show me a double-spey" because the post-circle position of everything should be nearly identical to your double before you sweep.

If the same thing happens with the snap as circle, then it's a matter of the force and float time you are allowing on the pull and push moves. Both of these casts use a pull upriver as well as a push of the rod back downriver toward where the dangle once was. You should be able to place the end of the flyline where you want with a circle/snap cast provided the rod is suited to the line and you apply a balanced amount of force to suit the situation.

But here's the rub - both the pull and the push in these casts moves the end of the line upriver. Therefore it's important to manage these in concert to place the anchor.

Upon lift, think about gliding the far end of the line over the water toward the upriver anchor. Only use enough pull force to move the end of the line halfway to the target. Huh? How does that put the end of the line at anchor? It DOESNT - the push takes it the rest of the way.

Thus while the line is still gliding upriver, push the rod back toward the dangle to pull even more against the line thus moving the end of the line the rest of the way.

If the anchor flies upriver, then either the pull force or the push force or both were too strong to place it. Usually a combination of both are to blame.

Now I simplified by saying half and half... sometimes you will need more pull than push or vice-versa... but my point is the force applied by the two phases = the force needed to put the anchor in the proper place.

A circle would incorporate more of an inclined climbing angle whereas the snap would track on a more horizontal plane, but unless you are in need of moving a sunken dangle a moderate compromise angle will do just fine.

Also since the next move following this is to sweep the line around, the shape of the rest of the head should accomodate the sweep.

I would add that often the anchor position is more accomodating than the final d-loop technique. In my experience the most common thing robbing the circle, snap or double from final casting power (after trunking) is over-rotation of the rod tip past the 5 o'clock stop position.

However the bloody-L is also a common problem, and if you tune both of these in you should be good to go regardless of the head length.

These are points I make while teaching the snap and circle Spey casts and based on the ah-ha's I get from students I believe this pull/push balance is the key to managing anchor position with this class of cast.

Good luck with the pursuit, these are useful and fun casts to know.
 

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Norwegian speyfanatic
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197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
speyman said:
I don't use it much but I have to teach it. This summer I had a chap who did it much like we used to. Rather than Snap the rod down and under he simply raised the rod slowly and then cast the line completely upstream. Then on that straight, tight line he performed a perfect Double on the upstream side. What I like about this approach, besides the slowing down, is the fact the I can place the line at any angle above me I wish. If you angle it out across the river a ways then it is easy to cast it back down at 45 degrees rather than just straight back out at 90 degrees.

The fact that there is no snap or down movement makes it work very well with longer lines. The radius is as big as your rod.

This cast is done so slowly I like to call it the Beautiful or Poetic T rather than Snap T
If I understand you right the first move lift the whole line upstream as a overhead backcast without a forward cast? If this is correct it could be really difficult with a long belly line as it difficult to lift the whole line in an overhead cast wading deep in water. But it sounds like a nice cast to keep that guy following upstream of you at an appropriate distance...
 

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circle

Juro,I have said this before but I will again.You are excellent in explaining casts with the right words.You explained better than I have seen before the fact that the first movement does not need to do the whole task of getting the line upstream.I would personaly change your [pull] from the dangle and your [push] to continue the movement of the head upstream.I would say for [pull] :push with bottom hand,pull with upper.at same time.for the second move back to the dangle position[or preferrably further in to the beach] I would say:pull with bottom hand and push with the upper,equaly at same time.It allows more of a fine tune and also gets the caster using the all important underhand and the powerful combination of the leverage of the two working together.I see too many guys pull the line upstream with both hands and then the rod ends up there too and the line has lots of nise in it and ya da ya da ya da.we have all seen those struggles. with the oush/pull,pull/push your hands stay in the same position and the rod does all the work and your ready for the pull/push /stop at the end!!Beau
 

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Beau--

When you click reply, look at additional options and click "Manage Attachments". Make sure your jpeg file is max 60kb image size 600(w) x 400(h) max.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Beau -

Thanks for the great tip, I agree keeping the arms under control to flex the rod effectively both directions is key. I'll be sure to pay attention to the hands and arm motions. When it's done the way you describe it's amazing just how effortless the snap move can be.

Bob -

I refer to an imaginary third person perspective the 'Spey birdie' during classes to add a helpful birds-eye perspective from above. For instance the Spey birdie sees a d-loop just like the guys standing alongside on shore because the d-loop is canted at an angle, not straight up and down, etc.

Yes these mnemonics are particularly corny but I put the schtick in there on purpose to make people remember via mnemonics and anecdotes. I'd rather be remembered as having corny metaphors than forgotten as a prim and proper terminologist.

Anyway if the Spey birdie flies overhead when doing a sweep around to the d-loop for a double or circle/snap he sees the rod stop well before it's pointing straight back.

If the target was 12 o'clock high (from above) then the rod would stop it's sweep sharply at 5 o'clock (or before) to make the d-loop come out opposite to target. If the rod went past that point, the d-loop would acutally be out of alignment and pointing opposite a point upriver on the far bank, probably around 2 o'clock instead of midnight.

In simpler terms, a straight d-loop requires that the rod stops well before it's straight back behind the angler. The d-loop will continue on the sweep momentum and swing around a bit to come straight to target. That's roughly 5 o'clock-ish, again it's just a mnemonic device.

You don't have to be a Spey birdie to see this, just stop the rod straight back and look to your opposite side - the side opposite the d-loop. You will be able to see the d-loop from the other side of your body because it goes around too far.

So for a snap or double, the rod start it's sweep after the set-up move at 9:00 and sweep around to 5:00 to stop. Workin' 9:00 to 5:00 (there's that schtick again) pause to let the d-loop form, and stroke forward to 12:00 - the d-loop should be properly aligned.

The next step is to watch the d-loop to ensure alignment is correct. What I mean by "watch the D-loop" is put the opposite foot forward and look up at the top half of the d-loop (rod to wedge) to check it's alignment.

That top segment of the d-loop is always a straight line, where the bottom half to anchor is a curve and hard to align.

Anyway, hope that makes sense.
 

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speyman said:
I don't use it much but I have to teach it. This summer I had a chap who did it much like we used to. Rather than Snap the rod down and under he simply raised the rod slowly and then cast the line completely upstream. Then on that straight, tight line he performed a perfect Double on the upstream side. What I like about this approach, besides the slowing down, is the fact the I can place the line at any angle above me I wish. If you angle it out across the river a ways then it is easy to cast it back down at 45 degrees rather than just straight back out at 90 degrees.

The fact that there is no snap or down movement makes it work very well with longer lines. The radius is as big as your rod.

This cast is done so slowly I like to call it the Beautiful or Poetic T rather than Snap T
Is this the cast that was shown in the 2003 'Spey Casting Secrets' video and described as a Reversed Double Spey? Subject to correction by any of the UK contingent, a Reversed Double Spey in the UK is different and involves the line being left on downstream (and usually downwind) side of the caster and the upper hand crossing the body to create the D loop.

Regards
Steven
 

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Norwegian speyfanatic
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Was out practising again today. Not going much better. That ##### bloody L...

The problem is to get a wide enough C on the water below and outside of me for that long belly. If I'm to slow with the pull and to quick with the push the lines will cross. Maybe I need a longer rod.

Or maybe Willie's answer to the question is the simplest, since it not a traditional speycast I don't need to master it...

No can't give up that easily, out again tomorrow and more practice :hihi:

Was also trying that Poetic T, it does work. But I can't really see which conditions to use it. A Circle cast help lift a heavy fly or a sinktip, but I imagine that would be dificult with the Poetic T?
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Maybe I need a longer rod.
I have an 18 footer here that I would be happy to sell you:lildevl:
 

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It's a strange old world! It isn't so many years ago (back in the late 90's) that one could find rods between 16'-20' going for a song in the UK. Nobody wanted them as the 15' appeared to be standard.

Regards

Steven
 
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