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How much overhang when using an underhand system? Building a line for a 12'6" g.Loomis 7/8 stinger. With about 5' of overhang and a 35' I can cast a nice loop. Is that too much or not enough overhang for this system?
Thanks,
Leroy.....................
 

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Jack Cook
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It depends

It depends on the back taper, or lack of it, on the shooting head. The Guideline heads will take 4-6 feet. The Hardy heads take about 3. Rio Skagit lines tolerate almost none. I keep experimenting as the days roll on but the more you can hang out there the tighter the loop will be.
 

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Cutting a shooting head to a specific lenght

In cutting a shooting head to a specific lenght we do not take the lenght of overhang in considiration. We cut heads to a specific weight, whereby the foating heads will be a little longer than the sinking heads. This to make it more comfortable to pick up (roll to the surface) the sinking shooting heads.

Overhang in casting can be used to create tight loops. Here we like to make a few 'dry rolls' where we start with the shooting head just out of the tip guide in between the first,second and sometimes a third rol we lenghtend the amount of overhead up to as long as you can handle (in extreems up to 10-12 feet). The pendulem effect that you now create pendels the back portion of the head come in an almost straight line behind the rod tip . This excellerates extreem line speed (like throwing a 'hammer'in atlethics), and (because of the very straight line path) you CAN (if you have a good horizontal powerstroke) create tight loops.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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This warrants further study IMHO. If we were talking gaming (as in my son's obsession) using overhang to tighten a loop could be likened to a 'cheat' or cool trick.

However the presence of thin line between the rod tip and the heavy back end of a head can ruin the energy transfer very easily. Case in point: Leave a rod length of running line past a short dense head (like the ones being discussed here), try to make a switch cast. YUK.

Without digging into this further I believe a small amount of overhang dampens the hammer effect of the rod tip on release therefore helping stop the rod closer to the path of acceleration resulting in a tighter loop. To a less significant degree it also increases the resistance of the d-loop against the forward stroke, which adds load.

There is some loss of energy in overhang, but if that loss is limited to what I refer to as the excess hammer-down effect, then the cast will have ample power without the shockwave often referred to as the 'shock dimple' or more recently the 'secondary loop' (which I find to be a bit of a stretch in terminology).

A tight loop can be made with zero overhang by stopping the rod close to the path of acceleration at the end of the power stroke. This is the best first step, then to tame and fine-tune the hammer-down effect with a little overhang is a neat trick.

It's important to note that there is an energy transfer loss and that should be limited to the control of the hammer-down of the tip at the end of the stroke, and care should be taken to ensure the gap does not steal from the forward stroke.
 

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Member FRSCA
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I agree with Juro about the loss of energy through the fine running line hanging out. I'm heading out in an hour or so here to mess with a Guideline D2, guess I have something else to experiment with.
 

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Jack Cook
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Energy

There is so much energy in a system like this that a little energy loss is not a problem. If you hang to much nothing happens like hitting a whiffle ball because the energy tansfer collapses. As you shorten it up you find the sweet spot where the transfer evens out. You will never get the kind og tight loops we are talking about by stopping the rod. We all do that already and believe me, when you experiment with overhang your loop will tighten up. Just a point, I don't care if thee loop is tight or not. What I care about is that the energy is focused like a laser beam which is what makes thing tighten up. The cast goes out like a rifle shot.

What Juro decsribes as the hammer effect is about the physics of it. Simon even talks about dampening the bounce due to the pile of energy in a short section of line.

I have used this technique for several years. Oddly enough even though I have used it on a variety of rods and actions I have never found that the rod made any difference. The difference is the head. Each type of head I have has a different sweet spot. I am sure the running line makes sone difference as well but I always use the same running line so that is moot for me. I do remember using some slick shooter once and I had to shorten things up a lot over the 6 feet I was using with Guidelines .028
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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It also depends on the skill of the caster to tolerate overhang. As you get better you are able to handle more hanging out there. It does tighten loops up but as Jack says I do not feel those lazer tight loops are the best for distance. Seems more of the tank track loop you see with alot of distance casters are what I am looking for.

-sean
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Jack,

We are in agreement it seems, as we said many of the same things in different terms.

However it's entirely possible to throw tight wind-resistant and efficient loops without using overhang by managing the stop of the rod close to the path of acceleration. Otherwise it would be impossible to throw a tight loop with a double taper line.

Overhang is just one technique that helps keep the rod stop close to the POA most likely due to a controlled dissipation of energy, and a good one at that, but the reasoning behind this symptom is equally important and is reproducable a number of ways.

Good discussion!
 

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tight loops vs fishing

Don't you get more tangles with tight loops, especially if you are using large or weighted flies?
I always thought the whole concept was overrated, more for show than for fishing.
I had to learn to cast extra big wide loops when fishing multiple weighted nymphs on a singlehand rod.

Vinnie in Juneau
 

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Member FRSCA
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Just got in from testing it (and a trip to a local brewery{Founders Imperial Stout is serious stuff, just trust me!}). It does change things up a bit, and does throw a tighter loop. Although it will take some more practice to get it down. I was fishing an old Sage 8124, Guideline 9/10 S2S3 with 2ft cut off on Climax Zip. I found that 2-3ft overhang was optimum, any more was too much, any less made no noticbale difference. I think I need a different running line, as the mono is a bit hard to keep a handle on.

Even though I had problems with the management of the running line, those Guideline heads are just SICK! Even with a big "wet sock" style streamers on the end, the thing goes like nothing else! The 2/3 was a bit too much for the conditions, maybe an I/2 would suit the local better.

I tried the same rod with a Rio Mid Spey 8/9 with the middle taken out, and even though the two are within 20 grains and a few feet in size, there was no comparing the two as far as turn-over went.


Email Jack, get some Guideline heads, for the short bodied crew there is nothing better that I have seen.
 
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