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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is the knot for those not familiar with it:

http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/jb4knots/

I can't find any info about the breaking strength for it?

Has anyone seen reliable data on it's % breaking strength?

I want to know if the pinching effect caused by the overhand loop makes it less than 100% line strength.

PS: Bimini twist gets 100% but I think it's too time consuming and not as stealthy as the Non Slip loop knot.
 

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I have used this knot for years - an excellent knot - I have never had a failure. This is also the prefered knot for those who use plugs and is also known as the Rapala Knot. For steelhead it allows the use of heavy tippet with smaller low water flies and keeps them "alive". I have also used it with chironomids for trout fishing.... it's a good knot.
 

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Oncorhynchus tshawytscha
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Non Slip Loop

I use this knot for pike fishing when I am using heavy tippet (30lb mason hard mono). It allows better movement of the fly and is easier to tie that a clinch with such stout tippet. I have never had a failure with the knot.
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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Good knot. Only thing I would suggest is to retie it every so often after every good fish. A little chafing can happen with the loop on the hook when you get a fish on. So just be aware it is a good idea to retie it every so often. Really a good idea to do with any knot as there is no such thing as a 100% knot after it has been stressed by a fish.

-sean
 

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% strength...

The Rapala knot, very similar to the one illustrated in your posted link above, is shown on

http://www.steelheader.net/knots/knots.htm

and is quoted as 95% strength of leader/tippet.

I use the perfection loop, which has a different construct, and I understand that it's strength is about the same order.

I would agree about the need to check for chaffing of the loop, especially after a fish has been caught & returned. These knots are so much easier to tie again, than to run the risk of breaking off on that next fish.

Mike
 

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loco alto!
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Blanton's site occasionally hosts discussions about which "side" of the loop the tag should be passed through on the outgoing and incoming, really fine tuning this knot and actually testing the results. Maybe you can search their archives if you want to know the various breaking strengths of this knot.
 

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The Frugal Flyfisher
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Incorrect knot formation shown in video!

When the non-slip mono loop knot is properly tied, which it is decidedly not in the video link you provided, Sushiyummy, the knot, according to breaking tests conducted by Lefty Kreh and Mark Sosin in preparation for their 1991 re-make of their groundbreaking 1972 knot book - Practical Fishing Knots - is near 100% breaking strength - when properly tied, and using the correct number of wraps for the diameter of the mono, and properly "set".

I have used this knot ever since reading about it in the Kreh/Sosin book Practical Fishing Knots II in 1991. Following the proper tying guidelines, I have never had the knot itself break, only the loop (see Sean's posting earlier in this thread about loop fraying).

However, I have to reiterate, the manner of tying the knot as illustrated in the aforementioned video is incorrect. The knot as shown there will break under considerably less strain than a correctly tied non-slip mono loop. To see the correct procedure for tying the knot, I refer you to pages 53, 54 and 55 in the Kreh/Sosin book - Practical Fishing Knots II (1991, Lyons & Burford, publ.).
 
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The truth is that there are at least three versions of this knot, not including how many wraps one makes. I've used all three and found all three to be stronger than, for instance, the perfection loop mentioned above, which usually tests out at about 65-75%. I do believe, though, that the version shown in the book referenced above is probably the strongest. However, since I want the break to occur at the tippet-to-fly connection rather than up the leader somewhere (like when I'm hung-up) I'm usually happy with an 85-95% knot, which I think all three versions of the non-slip can achieve when tied correctly.
 

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When I have tested the knot as tied in the kreh/sosin book it nearly always breaks where the monofilament contacts the eye of the hook. So it's breaking within the mono itself, where the greatest stresses are being applied (the force of the metal against the mono cocentrates the stress due to the force being applied by pulling the mono). Now I don't know whether that's 97%, or 95%, or 85%, but the fact it breaks in the material rather than the knot says to me this is one heck of a strong knot, more so than an improved clinch,duncan loop, or perfection loop, which in my tests have almost always broken in the knot. The only other knots that I've tested that come close to the no-slip loop are the trilene and palomar, both of which do not allow the fly to swing freely. For me any time I'm tying on a fly greater than a sz. 8 it's Lefty's no slip loop, smaller than that it's a trilene.
 

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I learned that know from Lefty, and have never had a failure with it.

Lefty stresses that the number of wraps is crucial to strength. It does not matter which direction you wrap in, as long as you pass the tag end back through from the same side it came out of the overhand knot.

I watched the video above and did not spot the error, what was wrong with it?
 

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The Frugal Flyfisher
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I learned that know from Lefty, and have never had a failure with it.

Lefty stresses that the number of wraps is crucial to strength. It does not matter which direction you wrap in, as long as you pass the tag end back through from the same side it came out of the overhand knot.
I watched the video above and did not spot the error, what was wrong with it?
2HandTheSalt, you give the answer, which I have marked in bold and blue. Watch the video again, very closely. The knot tier (who sounds like Gary Borger, who should know better), after the wraps, passes the tag end back through the opposite side of the overhand knot than it originally came out of.

The telltale for this knot is how the tag end lies after tying the knot. If, as in the video, it sticks out to the side, the knot is incorrectly tied, and will not be as strong as it could be. When the knot is finished correctly, the tag end should lie along and parrallel to one leg of the loop. If it sticks out to the side, as in the video, the knot should be retied. This, by the way, is a very common error that I have seen many times.
 

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When I have tested the knot as tied in the kreh/sosin book it nearly always breaks where the mono filament contacts the eye of the hook. So it's breaking within the mono itself, where the greatest stresses are being applied (the force of the metal against the mono concentrates the stress due to the force being applied by pulling the mono.
Exactly. Often wondered why folks (like me 95% of the time) who just do an 'improved clinch knot' don't do a double run of leader through the eye of the hook. Also a good point made above about running the leader through the 'right side' of the loop; you'll get the same problem with the clinch if you put it through the 'wrong side.'

Fred

Edit: noticed in the 'how to' for the loop knot it mentioned not using it on hooks sizes below a #12. Any idea why?
 

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Fred,

You always have a loop with this knot so for small flies the loop can get caught or stuck in the fly frequently causing it to look unnatural. I think that's the reason why most folks don't use it with smaller flies.
 

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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Gents for the finer points of this knot. Now I know what knot to do.

So, in summary, the tag end must end up as suggested in the Rapala knot instructions provided in Steelhead.net by Speyducer? I should ask a refund from Gary Borger for missing out on this finer point.

I saw the mention of loop fraying by hook eye. Yes, I concur that if there is a break off, I want it to be at the eye, not at the Tippet/ Leader connection for conservation sake (half life of flourocarbon being infinity and beyond?).
Also, I want it to be weaker than my 100% Tippet/ Leader connection using Bimini Twist/ Multi weave perfection loop for Pre tied knots (see adjacent posting) or I will be enslavened to the basement longer tying this knot combination. Another version is Non Slip Loop knot/ Multi weave perfection loop, assuming the hook eye does it's job in break offs.

Plus, I have seen what happens to my cat when it has eaten a string and it's half passed through the next day. Not a time to have guest coming over and the cat jumps up on their lap (a America's Funny Video submission here).
 

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loco alto!
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note tag directions in sazans post, they are the opposite of what fliegenfisher recommends regarding strength
 
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