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Discussion Starter #1
Queston- I purchased a new (graphite IIIe) Sage 9140-4 rod last year, and I've been learning to Spey cast for the last year. I have two lines for this: 1) an SA mastery tri-tip 9/10, and 2) an Airflow Delta Long 9/10 that I made into a tip system and use with the SA tips. This is the only Spey Rod I have ever cast, and I'm starting to get a little frustrated. While I can cast reasonably well, the double spey coming a bit more easily than the single, I can't seem to generate a whole lot of line speed or a really tight loop that will shoot a fair bit of line. Under ideal conditions everything goes fine, but put a little breeze in my face and I fight the rod....it just seems too easy to overpower. Yet if I hold back and let the rod do the work it doesn't seem to have the backbone to fire out line. My questions are: 1) Does this sound like the rod is under-lined? It does seem to cast better with a type IV tip than a flaoter. 2) Does anyone with lots of experience have experience with this rod, and do you like it.....if so, with what line? 3) Is this the nature of the so called "traditional" flex rods? My ultimate goal is to be able to throw heavy flies and/or tips in strong wind, and without sacrificing distance. Should I have chosen the Euro model instead. I know it's hard to tell without watching me cast, but any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance.
 

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loco alto!
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When I was starting with the spey, I too found that sink tips were often easier to cast. Now I believe this is because the sinktip provided a more positive anchor, which helped the rod load for the forward cast.

With my casting now improved, I find that tight loops and line speed come much easier with fast action rods -- but I really don't like how they fish, so I avoid them.

Sage traditional rods have soft butts compared to many other rods out there, and they don't like to be pushed. To get more line speed with these rods, I find it useful to concentrate the power stroke by applying a greater proportion of power with the BOTTOM hand. For some reason, the Sage traditional rods respond to this really well, at least in my hands.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
sound advice

Thanks- I'll give it a try. I take it you are pleased with this rod then....I like a little slower single hander, so it seemed like a good choice. I knew the modified tip system would raise a few eyebrows, but I haven't had too many issues doing it with the single hander. They didn't make a delta long tip system at the time either. I like the SA line very much, only I can't seem to carry the whole length of the belly aloft too well, and it doesn't shoot well if you don't. I decided to try the shorter belly of the Delta for a little change, and I like it. I still had problems in the wind before I spliced the loops in though. Are you not in favor of the euro rods? Are they primarily for overhand casts? We don't even have a shop that carries two handers here, so I have to go on word of mouth. Thanks in advance.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks to Loco too. I appreciate getting advice from experience spey casters. I think you're right about the anchoring of the sink tip. I though maybe this was pointing towards the rod being underloaded by the other weights? I wish I could try several lines without having to buy several lines though....
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks to Loco too. I appreciate getting advice from experience spey casters. I think you're right about the anchoring of the sink tip. I though maybe this was pointing towards the rod being underloaded by the other weights? I wish I could try several lines without having to buy several lines though....
 

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Sage 9140

I purchased this rod when it first came out and it is currently my primary rod of choice for most rivers and situations. The rod definitely hates to be pushed but if you let her do the work for you there is no reason that you should have any problems banging out some decent casts and getting line speed has never really been a problem. I am not very familiar with the lines that you are using on this rod but if you want a couple suggestions I would look at a WC 9/10/11 or a midspey 9/10. These two lines work extremely well on this rod and make shooting line an absolute blast. If I can give you one bit of advice in casting this rod it would be to make a smooth casting stroke. This rod does not like to be pushed real hard at any point during the casting stroke and responds much better to a slow consistant motion. Good Luck and Tight Lines!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks to Chrome Fever

Thanks to all. I did a little comparing of lines with the info provided on the line review of the speypages, along with Simon G's Rio recommendations. I'm pretty sure I'm under-lining the rod for my ability (novice) and will give a heavier line a try. The airflow line I have is a lot lighter than your mid-spey 9/10. I think I'll give that a shot. Thanks again.
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Try Lines

I wish I could try several lines without having to buy several lines though....
SpeyMonkey, Your statement above has been something I've thought about for a long time. I've repeatedly read the same thing on this board and as a person who has had the dilemma of wanting to try various lines and not being able to afford it I've thought about offering rental lines for people to try out. To start I was thinking maybe a set of 4 Deltas (7/8, 8/9, 9/10/, & 10/11) and 4 Delta Longs in the same line weights shipped with a return label for $10.00 a day per set rental fee + insured postage. You could rent either set or both. There would be no obligation other than what is stated above but if lines were sold from this tryout then the rental fee would be deducted from the price. I'm very interested in any comments anyone has on this idea, good, or bad. Take Care, MJC
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Count me in...

Excellent idea MJC...you can count me in if you do it. There's nothing more aggravating than dropping 75-100 bucks on a line that will just sit in the garage and collect dust. It discourages me from trying more. Let me know if you decide to go ahead with it...I think you'll sell a few lines this way too. After using the Airflow spey line I think I'll get an airflow or 2 for my single handers. The coating on these is fantastic.
 

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FWIW, I use the 9/10 Midspey on mine. I usually use a 15' 190 grain tip or the floater.
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Try Lines

SpeyMonkey, Thanks for the positive response. I should be ready to go in about a week. I'll have full details on my website very soon. Take care, MJC
 

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MJC, that is a jolly good idea!!!!

Major problem most of us have is the only way you can get to try a line is either a fishing buddy has it, or you drop the dime. Which is a pretty darned expensive way of finding out ... "Na, not that line, at least for me."

As Bob Meiser would say: Good on you!"

fae
 

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Pullin' Thread
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SpeyMonkey,

This particular Sage rod was not designed for making 100 ft casts, although a good spey caster can cast it 100 ft if he slows down and uses a very long stroke with an 8/9 spey line. Nor was it designed to cast into a stiff wind. As you have found, it folds up when you try to put some power to it, which is a function of its design. This was my first 2-hander and even though I still own the rod, I haven't fished with it for 6 years because of the limitations of the rod, as you are becoming aware and how slow its action is.

You are not underlining the rod with the 9/10 spey lines that you are using. In fact, you are actually overlining it with them. The 9140-4 is much better ballanced with an 8/9 spey line. (Yes, I know Sage claims it is a 9/10 rod; but it really is an 8/9 or possibly a 7/8 rod). It is a very slow rod that lacks backbone. In fact, it was designed with a butt section that is smaller in diameter than the 3rst section of the rod in order to make a real slow 2-hander and that smaller diameter, less powerful butt section causes the rod to have some interesting charcacteristics and quirks. One of which is the lack of power in the butt (which was your complaint in your first post on the rod).

If you want a rod that has power in the butt (and it sounds like you do), you really need to move to a different rod. The Sage 9140-4 is going to continue to frustrate you since it was never designed to do what you want it to do. You have outgrown the rod and found its limitation frustrating. This is why I never recommend this rod to a beginning spey caster, far too many find the rod limits their ability to cast and cover fish because it lacks power in its butt section.
 

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loco alto!
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getting a bit off topic here, but flytyer's point about a stiff butt echoes some of what I've been considering as of late. I don't like fast action spey rods - mostly because for me the fast action detracts from the overall fishing qualities of the rod - but I do like a butt section that can cope with being pushed. Coupled with a softer tip for easy casting and tippet protection, and it seems there are few rods in this category. The Scott 15' #9 comes to mind, which is a decidedly moderate action and soft tipped, but progresses to a very stiff butt (not much unlike their single handed G and ARC rods).

As one who hasn't cast them all, I'd like to know what other rods have a forgiving tip and a stiff butt? I'm shopping....
 

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Flytyer,

The rod SpeyMonkey has is the newest version of the 9140 with the latest color change.

Loco,

I know what you are saying. While I have finally given in to the broomsticks, because they cast so darn nice, not all of them are great fishing rods. However the T&T 1509 is an excellent rod with a modest tip that progresses nicely into a stiff butt (Nothing like its tough little brother, the 1409). If you are a Sage man look to the 9141. If that is too much stick look to it's little brother- 7141.

William
 

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loco alto!
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that little tidbit about the T&T 1509 has me interested!

I've cast the T&T 14' #9 and found it characteristically smooth like others in the T&T family, and a rocket caster, just too fast for all day fishing. The Sage 14' #9 old Euro (which I have) is a real rocket, cast's nicely when loaded, but its too much for the 10 lb fish that I chase. If the 15' #9 is a notch more playful, then it just might do the trick -- gotta get my hands on a tester. I already own (gasp) 5 T&T single handers, more than any other, cetainly my favorite for smooth power.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
To Flytyer...

Flytyer....you told me what I wanted to hear and what I was afraid to hear all at once. Where do I go from here? What are the real drawbacks of the euro rods? Is this what anyone casting over 100 ft must be using? What I'm looking for is the RPLxi of a spey rod, if that's possible. I know that 1 hander (RPLxi) is pegged as a broom-stick, but I have a 5-piece 8wt and it roll casts better than any XP and and never ever runs out of backbone or punch when going for distance. (Sorry about the single-hand Sage speak, but its the only appropriete analogy I can come up with.) Is this possible in a spey rod? Does it need to be a noodle to make all the essential casts? The more I cast the more I'm leaning towards a euro. Unfortunately dry flies and calm days are never part of the picture here....if they were the norm I might stick it out with the noodle. Let me know what you all think, and thanks for the input.
 

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Sage 9140 models

The rod that Fly Tyer is talking about is the older Sage 9140 with little back bone. The one you have (as I do) is the newer Sage 9140 with the Graphite IIIE blank. It has only been out for 2-3 years. It is much stiffer butt section and does a much better job casting sink tips and bigger flies than the older 9140-4. You should have no problem casting this rod in that 80-100' range. If you are looking for a cannon in extremely windy conditions I would say that this is not the perfect rod for that situation but it will get the job done. Before rushing out and dropping some big coin on another rod I would play with a couple different lines on the Sage that you have. You definitely need to slow down and create a nice smooth casting stroke to get this rod to produce from the sounds of it. But when you get the hang of it I think you will be pleasantly surprised. If you decide that you want another rod/cannon for those windy days or just to have another rod you may want to look at other MFG's other than Sage. I have nothing against them or there rods but there are a lot of other MFG's out there that build some really nice cannons for the same amount of money and also quite a few that are a lot less expensive. Good Luck and Tight Lines.
 

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SpeyMonkey,

As you have already found, even though the new Sage (dark green) 9140-4 has been improved over the old brown 9140-4, it is still pretty much a noodle. Inland said it well, if you like Sage or are committed to only Sage, go to the Sage 9141-4 because it has some power in the butt, although it is not a fast rod, it is not a noodle either. To get a fast-action 2-hander, you really need to go to a different manufacturer than Sage.

If you are really looking for a fast rod (and it is obvious that is your preference with single-hand rods) look at the T&T, G. Loomis GLX, Loop Green Series, or Gatti 2-handers. It also sounds like you are looking for either a 9 or a 10 weight rod. Those who have been involved with the forum for a while know that I have a distinct preference for fast 2-handers and that my favorite rods are the T&T with the G. Loomis GLX running a very close second. The T&T 1409 or 1410 will fit the bill for a 14 ft 9 or 10 weight in a fast rod very well. The G. Loomis 14 ft 9/10 is another superb fast-action 14 ft 10 weight. And the Loop Green Series 14 ft 9 weight is another nice, fast-action 9 weight.

If you are looking for a 15 foot rod, the T&T 1509 is a little bit slower 9 weight than the T&T 1409 with (as Inland put it) a nice powerful butt for casting. The T&T 1510 is a wonderful, fast-action 10 weight, and the Loop Green Series 15 ft 10/11 is another very nice, fact-action 10 weight. G. Loomis has a wonderful 10/11 weight 15 ft 2-hander in the GLX series; but it is really more of an 11 weight than a 10 weight.

In the moderate-fast action 2-handers it is very hard to beat the CND Custom, Redington (the expensive $750.00 ones), Scott, or Loop Blue Series rods. And my preference is the CND Custom followed by the Loop Blue Series simply because they have a faster recovery after a power stroke.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Still confused...

Thanks for the info....I'm still a little confused though as my 9140 has the copper-brown finish of the SLT series Sage one-handers. It was purchased new directly from Sage last year. Does anyone know if this is stiffer yet than the green blank, or is it just a cosmetic change? I know in the one-handers when Sage replaced the soft green SP rods with the new SLT they shed some weight, but also lost some back-bone. Is this true with the two-hander too? Can anyone verify the difference? Thanks.
 
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