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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'll be introducing several new rods at the Sandy Clave 2005.

Among them will be:

3 pc.

*15' 3 pc 9/10/11 fast progressive long belly rod..........Grain Window: 680 to 1100
*13' 3 pc 9/10 fast/med. fast progressive "Chinoonk".......................: 620 to 900

4 pc

*11'7" 4pc 5/6/7 fast progressive..................................Grain Window: 340 to 510
*12'0" 4pc 5/6/7 fast/med fast progressive.........................................: 340 to 520
12' 8" 4pc 5/6/7 X fast progressive......................................................: 340 to 520

13'6" 4pc 8/9 fast/med fast regressive Skagit Style...........................: 580 to 720
13'6" 4pc 9/10 fast/med fast regressive Skagit Style.........................: 600 to 850
Working with Mike Kinney on these

5pc

*10'6" 5pc 5/6 med fast progressive..............................Grain Window: 260 to 370
*10'6" 5pc 6/7/8 fast/med fast progressive.........................................: 360 to 580
10 6" 5pc 8/9/10 fast/med fast progressive........................................: 480 to 720

*12'6" 5pc 5/6 med fast progressive....................................................: 240 to 370
*12'6" 5pc 6/7 fast/med fast progressive.............................................: 360 to 510
*12'6" 5 pc 7/8 fast/med fast progressive............................................: 460 to 620

14' 5 pc 6/7/8 fast/med fast progressive............................................: 420 to 800
14' 5 pc 8/9/10 fast/med fast progressive.........................................: 600 to 1000
15' 5 pc 7/8/9 fast/med fast progressive............................................: 560 to 900
15' 5 pc 8/9/10 fast/med fast progressive..........................................: 600 to 1000
16' 6 pc 9/10/11 fast/med fast progressive........................................: 620 to 1100

* These are available now

We have been working on all of the above rods over the past 18 months and our targeted goal will be to have them all ready for the Sandy Clave 2005.

The 13'6" and longer 4, 5, and 6pc rods are presently going through final field test and evaluation.

All of the 13'6" and longer rods will be available for hands-on critique and evaluation throughout the Fall and Winter season via Aaron Reimer's shop in Carnation, WA.

They will be going from hand-to-hand.

I feel that the very best way to fine tune any series of rods is to give the general angling public the opportunity to evaluate the product while it's a "work in progress".

This allows... And acheives a broad, un-biased data base from a very broad spectrum of angler abilities.

From this on-going feedback we can make appropriate adjustments throughout the rods final phases of development.

Aaron's shop is really the perfect place to do this, as the guys that frequent his shop run the full spectrum of two handed casting and angling abilities.

......And for all who wish to get involved in this process....Your feedback will be appreciated.

It goes without saying that I am especially beholding to Aaron, the Brian's and Mike for this opportunity.

I may not be one of the "BIG GUYS", but I keep chugging along.... And guys like Aaron and friends make this all possible.


Meiz
 

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a/k/a loophitech
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New Rods

HOLY COW!!!

Way to go Meiz. I can not wait to try the 14' 6/7/8. I have been eyeballing some other rods, but this news has changed everything!

In my eyes, Bob, you surpass the "BIG GUYS" just by your willingness to chat about lines and fishing and lies about fishing! :) :) :)

Vinnie
 

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Very cool Bob!

I love that you are leading the way by using "grain windows" on your rods. I'm stopping by Aaron's after work tonight and he better have a 'sign-up' board for me to put my name on. If he doesn't I'm going to pester him until he does. :)
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Since Meiz now has the 15' 9/10/11 3-piece listed as available, I will say that I got to cast it at Sandy this past May. It was a very good casting, powerful, fast, progressive rod that easily tossed the whole (this means the line's running line section too) 9/10 GrandSpey [1300 gr wt] completely out the rod's tip. It was a joy to cast the rod with single, double and snake rolls. I cast it on the river at the lower end of the run with its pretty severe hydrolics and the rod performed flawlessly. I even told Meiz I hated to give the rod back to him I liked it so much.

Glad to see it is now available. I'm looking forward to casting the other ones.
 

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grain window, great concept

i like the grain window.alas, too many rods, too much work, too little time.where o where did i go wrong!
 

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I don't think any manufacturer in the world has that many two handers available. I just know I will try to cast as many as possible at the sandy next year, I can't wait. Also excited to get my hands on those two 5 piece rods again for a test drive. Well done Bob!!!! :smokin:


Brian
 
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Bob, Hows the 13x13 going. I hope to get a rod, a TFO TiCr 12x12 to a friend on our east coast for the mini marlin season from january to march for a shot or two off rocks around the Jervis Bay Penninsular. Any chance of getting a 13X13 to shoot over there as well. The seasons haven't been all that good of late, last reports were that billy numbers were down due to longliners targetting them to sell as broadbill steaks. Might be worth a shot though. Max
 

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geeze!

wanna trade ?,,,a boat float for a swing on the 16-6,,,,i'm really leaning towards multi-piece rods,,and,,why-not,,,i to must commend you on the grain rating,,super! :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks to all,

Lots of new sticks out there for 2005....All good news I think, because it brings recognition to the two handed community world wide.

Thought I'd share some thoughts on the grain windows that have been defined for my rods.

Any additional feedback on this would be appreciated.

I feel that defining the grain carrying capability of any given fly rod (regardless of it being single or two handed ) can be considered a "universal benchmark" guide that will aid the angler in specific line determination.

.....And gathered from my experiance with fly anglers in general, it is appearent that specific line determination can be especially problematic for the two handed angler.

Determining an absolutey accurate grain window for any given rod in itself can become "problematic"

I will use the 13'6" 7/8 wt. FES as an example. I think this is a fair choice as it has been fished in the field for several seasons, utilizing a wide variety of line systems.

The benchmark grain window for the FES by our determination is 460 to 640 grains.

....But this grain window is not accurate in all regards.

Example:

This past July we spent a week or so fishing a few rivers of the lower Fraser drainage for bright Springers and Sockeye.....The Upper Pitt in particular.

It was unseasonably warm, and although there was a fair number of fish present, glacial melt keep the river high and creamy, and we had to dredge to reach the bucket.

This gave us the opportunity to use, and test a couple of the Rio Scando interchangeable tip systems on several of the rods, among them the FES.

It was very quickly determined that the Rio 7/8 Scando head with tips was the right marriage for the FES under these fishing conditions.

We ended up rigging the Scando utilizing the full 44.5 belly, leaving the head/built-in compensator at full length, and looping on as much as 24' of T-14 for the tip.

...This with a 6 to 8 foot leader, double Rhea/Popsicle style tube flies, using 50 pound Rio slickshooter as the running line.

This netted out at 500 grains for the belly, and 336 grains for the tip, with a total head/tip/leader length of 74.5 feet to the running line.....And 836 grains.

The sweet spot meant having the running line loop just out of the tip-top 6 to 12 inches.

Utilizing very compact underhand deliveries, allowing only a leader anchor... We were able to consistently deliver the required 70' to 90' plus distances, with fully extended line lay out.....And were able to dredge the seams to fish this water correctly.

The accumulated grainage of 836 does in this case surpass the grain window given for the FES.

A few of the guys that prefer the long belly lines (which I shamefully am very poor at delivering, Russ HELP ME!!!) have related to me that they can consistently pick- up and re-deliver/aerialize 90' to 900 grains plus with the FES.

This too does surpass the given grain window, albeit in the hands of the accomplished caster.

These two scenairo's are without question at opposite ends of delivery technique: One shooting as much as 30 feet of line, the other shooting very little if any.... Although the grain delivery capability is still there never-the-less.

....But so also are the realitivly refined casting techniques required to successfully deliver within these two very different scenairo's.

For the majority of two handed anglers, on their regional rivers; utilizing classic spey delivery, and preferred loading:

....The FES will deliver (for example) the 7/8 ~ 8/9 Airflow Delta Taper long belly with tips, or the 7/8 ~ 8/9 Mid-Spey all day without a hitch, and most importantly:

They will be fishing well with thoughtfully designed lines.

Thus the recommended grain window of 460 to 640.

My point is that this of course would be true of many rods with inherent line carrying capabilities....Not just the FES.

....It is universal.

The Burkies, Sage, Loomis, CND, Scott.....Whatever, all have superb angling tools within their two handed inventories.

....And within these inventories, there are rods to suite everyone no doubt.

But...A common benchmark of grain carrying capability of each rod would eliminate a huge Gray area for the Green angler.

Plus give sales people at fly shops intellegent guidance when suggesting lines for their two handed rod inventory. Thus minimizing the possibility of innocently miss-directing the novice two hander with inappropriate line systems.

My guess is that a good share of the big sticks that are doomed to the closet, or end up on E-Bay do so simply because the angler became discouraged with the rod (or worse yet: two handed delivery in general) because of a miss-matched line system.

At any rate....I like to keep things simple but efficient, so I will be benchmarking all of my rods in this fashion, and will continue field work to refine these windows.

To MAXG:

Hope you are up, around and kicking !!!!

I have not forgotten, and thanks much for the reminder.

I have a 13X13 on the Jersey Coast right now that when field trial is completed will go to you next.

I to am very curious as to how this rod will perform for you guys.

.....Good to hear from you again.

Again.......Thanks to all

Meiz
 

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Meiz,

I've found that a rod that is good at casting the long lines with bellies of 80'-105' need to have an enherent large grain carrying capacity window. The reason for this I'm sure has to do with the physics of casting the long lines. For instance, take the GrandSpey 9/10 with its 1300 gr 95' belly or the SA XLT 10/11 with is 1245 gr 102' belly. If you are casting 55' with either of these lines, you are only casting about 550 gr. However, if you are casting the whole belly, you are casting the full 1300 or 1245 gr. This is a huge difference in weight and a long line caster needs the rod to be able to cast both the 550 gr and the 1300 gr equally well without the tip or mid-section collapsing with the full 1300 gr, nor have the rod not load at all with 550 gr. The grain window in this instance needs to be 700 grs, or if you use Peter's casting weight model, you need to have about 400 gr in the window for the rod to perform properly in fishing. This is quite a different scenario from casting a short belly line.

When casting the short belly lines, you only need a rod capable of casting a narrow range of gr weight well. For instance, if your short belly line has a belly of 55' and a gr wt of 600 gr, as soon as you are casting the whole belly, the gr wt is virtually the same for any cast longer than the belly because you are shooting the thin running line to achieve the longer distance. This means the rod can have a very different flex profile if it is designed for casting the short belly lines. Such a rod can have the mid-section and part of the butt loaded with the 600 gr and not be a problem for casting beyond the belly length. In other words, the grain window only needs to be about 150-200 gr, or with Peter's casting weight model, about a 100 gr window.

Likewise if you are casting a mid-belly line, the rod doesn't need to be capable of casting as great a range as with the long lines. Albeit, the mid-belly casting requires a greater range than with the short belly lines because the mid-belly is only 65' (about 10' longer than a short belly line) the rod would need to be able to cast a grain range of about 250 gr, or with Peter's casting weight model about 125gr-150 gr.

As can be seen from these examples, a rod that will cast long lines well needs to have a much larger grain range window without the rod's tip being overloaded, the mid-section being overloaded, or the tip being underloaded when casting short. Quite a challenge for a rod designer to say the least.

IMO, the best rods for casting long lines have a progressive loading flex profile that using more of the blank to support the casting load as the load increases without having the tip collapse under the highest load the long line will put on it. Such a rod feels very different from a rod that is designed for use with a short belly line, or a rod that is designed for a mid-belly line. It is also the reason many rods "blow-up" or break somewhere in the butt or mid-section when cast with the full belly of a long line by someone who has good technique that loads up the rod. The rod blank simply ovoids and fractures because it is being asked to carry and support too much weight. And you can have a slow, progressive rod, a moderately fast, progressive rod, or a fast, progressive rod work well with a long line provided it has the tip strength and mid-section beef to carry the full weight of the long line.

I personally like and prefer the faster, progressive loading, strong tip and mid-section, with powerful butt type of rod for use with long lines; however, I know several very good long liners who like moderately fast (or medium if you will), progressive, strong tip and mid-section rods with power in the butt. However, notice both the fast rods I like and the moderate rod they like have the same strong tip and mid-section with a powerful butt. the difference is in how stiff the rod is and how quickly the blank moves its load down from tip to butt.

This is also why many rods are not enjoyable to cast with a long line at all. They were designed to cast a small range of line weight well making them superb rods with the short lines; but they were never designed to cast the large weight range of the long lines.

And as you said Meiz, many rods get confined to the closet or are put on ebay because they were being used with the wrong line.
 

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Bob Congratulations

Bob

Congratulations !!! And how much sleep have you been getting :)

Seriously thats a hell of a line up of rods for one guy to put out.

I know they will be great.

Skilly
 

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Meise looks good.

Do you have the weight window for your Salt Water, S2H134910 4 pc. 13' ~ 9/10 wt?

Then for your switch rods:

5/6
7/8
9/10
 

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To Meise, Flytyer, anyone:

Does any scale maker make an simple and not expensive electronic scale that will enable us to weigh a rod by itself, a reel by itself , the line by itself or individual heads and then weigh these dimensions in total??

When we leave the spey lines, and get into the salt water and other sinking lines, we are often in the dark about what we have grain wise the heads, weight of running lines being cast and the weight of the flies.

For example my favorite Delta/Napa River Striper line is the Rio Striper 26 DC 350 grain line on my 9/10 Switch rod. That same line is Ken Hanley's favorite salmon line for close ocean surf water and estuary water. It is great on Meise's Saltwater 9/10 rod, and a rocket line on my Sage 7141. It also cast well on my Sage 6126 with very little if any running line out off the rod tip.

This go to line has a variance re the amount of running line out re a comfortable load for me with the switch rod, Bobs salt water rod, the 7141 and the 6126. I will be marking the comfort zone with different colored marker pens for each rod.

After that, it would be nice to be able to weigh the amount of running line that is out plus the head to see what grains work the best for each rod. Then I would have a benchmark for each rod.

This need was driven home as I recently bought Rio's 26' Striper Versi Tip (26' density compensate tips) with a skinny intermediate running line. The other Rio Striper line has a thick attached running line that can actually be spey cast, this one will collapse if a Spey cast is attempted.

The 250 Grain tip will not load Meise's rod and barely loads the 7146 and is a rocket with the 6126 in the surf. The 300 grain Aqua Lux tip works fairly well with about 20 ft of shooting line out in overhand casts with Meisers rod and the 7146, with the 6126 it is a rocket launcher. The 350 grain head starts to load Meise's rod and the 7146 with about 20' of running line out for the over hand cast, and with the 6126, it only works with just a little of the running line out. Both Meise's rod and the 7146 work well with the 450 grain head and 10 to 20' of running line. I will be color marking these heads on the shooting line for each rod. Again it would be nice to weigh the heads and the required running lines for bench marks for these rods.

Last but not least as we get into the heavy salt water flies and salmon flies, those flies can weigh quite abit, and they should be part of the total weight package. A good scale could help us there.

So does anyone know of a scale that will weigh up to 2-3 pounds total and then measure head weight and fly weight from 100 grains to ???.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hey David,

Funny that you should ask about scales because my friend Steve Godshall, a guide on the Rogue.... Kind of an anal putz two hander like me about lines/rods/flies and the like...

Has found a source for the most amazing little teeny digital read out scale I have ever seen: Measures to the .000 in grains, grams, ounces and a few other increments that I have never heard of.

It is calibrated at 200 grams, thats nearly 3100 grains, and will go to 500 grams....So that's a lot of shooting heads !!!

Plus it will fit in your shirt pocket.

As far as the pound thing goes that should be an easy do beyond this sweet little scale.

He can get these VERY reasonably, It's almost silly..... and they are PERFECT for measuring line grainage.

Mail me about these and I will have you contact him if you wish.

About the grainage carrying capability of the rods mentioned....Again....Mail me, especially about the salt water rod we built this past Winter.

If you remember, you watched me build the butt of this rod and it has a lot of reserve.

It has a very large grain window.

Skilly....

The number of two handed rods that presently enter the North American fly rod market as a whole is still a rather small percentage of the total.

.... Interest in my rods for sure will increase a bit over the next 12 months, as I feel that I am filling a niche demand with the indroduction of a wide range of 4, 5, and 6 pc two handers.

This is a long range move on my part, and I will generate more domestic and international interest because of it.

But I do not think that the phone will be ringing off the hook with orders overnight.

It really does not work that way for a small shop like mine.

Interest in a service like mine is spread primarily by word of mouth.

I feel that (for example) the introduction of 24 two handed rods on the part of Loomis alone this year, does show that they have all intentions of reaching well beyond a regional "niche" market.

They are certainly capable of doing so, and will no doubt produce some freaking outrageous sticks.

This is a good thing.

As in all honesty...This will only generate more interest in the sport world wide.





Meiz
 

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loco alto!
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Bob Pauli said:
Bob:

What is fast regressive?
I've heard Bob refer to Burkheimer speys as regressive tapers, with a stout tip directs load down into mid and butt. No doubt Bob can answer better, but he seems to have inadvertently skipped over your post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mr. Pauli,

The tapers on the two 13'6" 8/9 and 9/10 wt. rods will be quite different then the progressives.

Both will be accomplishing the same goals..... Just in a bit of a different fashion.

The 13'6" rods will have (by comparison to the progressive tapers) quite a bit more material, and a much faster recovery ratio in the top 2/3s.....Followed by an adjustment in material/wall thickness in the 2/3 ~ 1/3 transition to allow a slower recovery, yet sufficient reserve to keep the top end in a work mode.

A regressive taper.

This is by no means anything new, lots of tapers out there based on this.

....But this will be a new taper for me, and I am honored to have Mike help me dial these in.

Meiz
 

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What's in a name?

So that we can all better understand each other, could Bob Meiser, or someone else who's knowledgeable, give us definitions of the words "progressive" and "regressive"? Is there any relationship with either of these terms to rod speed, or do these terms quantify, or otherwise define, rod flex? :confused:
 

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fly on little wing
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Nice graphite Bob

Are you still keeping your other rods sizes/weights available?

You know I'll be interested in those light line cannons (5/6/7).

Good call going to 4 and 5 pieces.

You West Coast guys get all the good graphite.

Gary
 
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