Need your help for some Answers
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Speybum, re Favorite Spey Rod manufacturer
I have 3 Spey Rods, and they are all Sage Rods.
They are well made and perform very well. I have the 7136, 7141 and the 10151. The 7136 has been replaced by the 7141 and is going on the market.
The 7141 will be my prime Spey Rod for most of my North Kali waters and the SW Oregon rivers. The 10151 is/will be used for salmon and on days the wind overwhelms the 7141 or I have to heave some heavy sinking lines to get to the bottom in heavy winter flows.
When you see the Sage reps and fly fishing store reps/guides favoring the 7141 for these waters, it made my decision to buy a 7141 a lot easier. I have been pleased with it after my first cast with it.
The 7141 for a soon to be 64 year old grampa is a lot easier to stand in the water for hours and use versus the 9's and 10's. When I use the 10151 for an hour, I need to take 5-10 minutes to rest the old body.
My problem with Sage as posted a couple of months ago is two fold.
#1 Is their lack of line recommendations for their specific rods for specific waters and wind conditions. Thank goodness that Rio does a good job there or you could spend 100's of dollars for a Sage Rod and still not have the right line for it. That is a problem with their one handed rods and their Spey Rods. Good rods and good luck on finding a fly line or lines that work for their rods.
#2. After you send your warranty card in, you never hear from them. Of course this is typical of most fly rod and reel manufacturers and even the line manufacturers. Reminds me of the America Car dealers in the 1970's before they got their butts kicked by the Japanese with good products and customer followup, like how do you like your car and what don't you like. What could we do to improve the product?
I have 3 Spey Rods, and they are all Sage Rods.
They are well made and perform very well. I have the 7136, 7141 and the 10151. The 7136 has been replaced by the 7141 and is going on the market.
The 7141 will be my prime Spey Rod for most of my North Kali waters and the SW Oregon rivers. The 10151 is/will be used for salmon and on days the wind overwhelms the 7141 or I have to heave some heavy sinking lines to get to the bottom in heavy winter flows.
When you see the Sage reps and fly fishing store reps/guides favoring the 7141 for these waters, it made my decision to buy a 7141 a lot easier. I have been pleased with it after my first cast with it.
The 7141 for a soon to be 64 year old grampa is a lot easier to stand in the water for hours and use versus the 9's and 10's. When I use the 10151 for an hour, I need to take 5-10 minutes to rest the old body.
My problem with Sage as posted a couple of months ago is two fold.
#1 Is their lack of line recommendations for their specific rods for specific waters and wind conditions. Thank goodness that Rio does a good job there or you could spend 100's of dollars for a Sage Rod and still not have the right line for it. That is a problem with their one handed rods and their Spey Rods. Good rods and good luck on finding a fly line or lines that work for their rods.
#2. After you send your warranty card in, you never hear from them. Of course this is typical of most fly rod and reel manufacturers and even the line manufacturers. Reminds me of the America Car dealers in the 1970's before they got their butts kicked by the Japanese with good products and customer followup, like how do you like your car and what don't you like. What could we do to improve the product?
Speybum,
I like fast action rods and this fits in with what I think are the best ones. I prefer T&T over all the others with G.Loomis GLX's a very close second. G.Loomis doesn't produce the variety in the GLX that T&T does and the T&T is a little more forgiving with just as much muscle to make very long casts if you learn how to do so.
I do not like any of the other G.Loomis 2 -handers though, they are too slow for my taste. I have cast Redington's that are nice casters if you want something between the Sage and T&T as far as how fast the rod is.
Still day in and day out, I'll take a T&T first and a G.Loomis GLX second.
I like fast action rods and this fits in with what I think are the best ones. I prefer T&T over all the others with G.Loomis GLX's a very close second. G.Loomis doesn't produce the variety in the GLX that T&T does and the T&T is a little more forgiving with just as much muscle to make very long casts if you learn how to do so.
I do not like any of the other G.Loomis 2 -handers though, they are too slow for my taste. I have cast Redington's that are nice casters if you want something between the Sage and T&T as far as how fast the rod is.
Still day in and day out, I'll take a T&T first and a G.Loomis GLX second.
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1,771 Posts
I'm not sure if I could say it's a matter of manufacturer; each brand has models that are exceptional and others that can be beat by the other.
For instance, after casting the T&T 9wt 14' that Simon had at Sandy, I must have that rod. Yet the Sage 7141 has enough of a trail of testimonials following it that I am sure it's one of the best for it's niche. My old IMX 15' 8/9 continues to impress me on the river with a range of lines. Leland's Scott 8wt felt 'automatic' when I cast it recently. There are so many brands... as a consumer I find it's best to think about the models.
And then there are rods most of us haven't heard of yet that will amaze... coming soon :devil:
For instance, after casting the T&T 9wt 14' that Simon had at Sandy, I must have that rod. Yet the Sage 7141 has enough of a trail of testimonials following it that I am sure it's one of the best for it's niche. My old IMX 15' 8/9 continues to impress me on the river with a range of lines. Leland's Scott 8wt felt 'automatic' when I cast it recently. There are so many brands... as a consumer I find it's best to think about the models.
And then there are rods most of us haven't heard of yet that will amaze... coming soon :devil:
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886 Posts
Bruce & Walker
I've got a lot of rods, almost as many as Fred, most are Bruce & Walkers but I have a Sage or two and a Thomas & Thomas to compare.
I think the Sages are spoilt by the reel seats. The 7136 I have is spoilt by having such a short adjustment on the seat a couple of my Hardy perfects will not fit at all. Why a manufacterer with a name like Sage put such a flimsy seat is a mystery to me.
British rods suffer from not being supplied in tubes in most cases. The Double Speys from Bruce & Walker have tubes but at the price they need to.
Malcolm
I've got a lot of rods, almost as many as Fred, most are Bruce & Walkers but I have a Sage or two and a Thomas & Thomas to compare.
I think the Sages are spoilt by the reel seats. The 7136 I have is spoilt by having such a short adjustment on the seat a couple of my Hardy perfects will not fit at all. Why a manufacterer with a name like Sage put such a flimsy seat is a mystery to me.
British rods suffer from not being supplied in tubes in most cases. The Double Speys from Bruce & Walker have tubes but at the price they need to.
Malcolm
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2,735 Posts
I love the Scott ARC series - the 1287 and the 1509 are two rods that in my opinion can pretty much cover the entire spectrum of fishing conditions. I do not like the really fast rods but many of the sages I have tried are too slow. The Scotts are medium fast action with lots of backbone for making long casts but handle short casts with ease
Call me Broken record rob if you will but..
I have owned and or fished spey rods by Sage: 10150-5 7136,9140-4 8150-4,Loomis: 14ft9-10 T&T: 13ft 9wt St Croix:14ft 9-10
Now.. my Burkheimer 9143-3 can do everything all of thoes rods did but better, while feeling better in the hand.
but then there are a lot of very popular rods, particularly the Sages that I really dislike. The
8150-4 and 7136-4 especially. Some people really love thoes rods so there is a certain element of personal preference. frankly I can;t wait to finish my 8139-3.
Burkheimers are in my opinion the best.
I have owned and or fished spey rods by Sage: 10150-5 7136,9140-4 8150-4,Loomis: 14ft9-10 T&T: 13ft 9wt St Croix:14ft 9-10
Now.. my Burkheimer 9143-3 can do everything all of thoes rods did but better, while feeling better in the hand.
but then there are a lot of very popular rods, particularly the Sages that I really dislike. The
8150-4 and 7136-4 especially. Some people really love thoes rods so there is a certain element of personal preference. frankly I can;t wait to finish my 8139-3.
Burkheimers are in my opinion the best.
Spey rods
The rod of choice for my style of casting would be the slower Sage action.If I was fishing really big water such as the Skeena ,Frazer or Thompson. I like the power and fast punch of the T&T to reach out and touch those unreachable iron heads.I have two Scott rods and for what? I don't know.I did not like the finish or the action of the first one so I bought one more to really be sure.Just to Spey casting at the time I purchased those rods didn't know what would fit me or the style I would develop.To get back to the subject I would say the Sage .Sage makes a great rod in every way.
The rod of choice for my style of casting would be the slower Sage action.If I was fishing really big water such as the Skeena ,Frazer or Thompson. I like the power and fast punch of the T&T to reach out and touch those unreachable iron heads.I have two Scott rods and for what? I don't know.I did not like the finish or the action of the first one so I bought one more to really be sure.Just to Spey casting at the time I purchased those rods didn't know what would fit me or the style I would develop.To get back to the subject I would say the Sage .Sage makes a great rod in every way.
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5,447 Posts
I would agree with Juro that it is less the manufacturer and more the model. I have been fortunate enough to cast/fish a number of rods from a number of manufactures and have found a few that are my go to rods.
The T&T 1307 is the finest liteline spey rod I have cast. For an all around rod, I am a big fan of my Sage 8150-4. I agree it can be a bit light for winter fish and a bit heavy for some summer-runs but it is such a pleasure to fish that I often times make do with its tweener status. For heavier weights (9-10-11), I am not as set. I have a new T & T 1509-3 that I'm hoping will fit the bill for most of my winter fishing. I also have the 1510-4 Scott ARC which I enjoy casting although it fishes more like a nine than a ten. Not surprising as I think the 1509 is really an eight.
Rob, have to agree with you on the Burkheimers being sweet rods. Since not everyone here knows your affiliation with them though, you might want to put that in your testimonials just so people can factor that in. Not saying you are wrong but you can hardly be unbiased.
The T&T 1307 is the finest liteline spey rod I have cast. For an all around rod, I am a big fan of my Sage 8150-4. I agree it can be a bit light for winter fish and a bit heavy for some summer-runs but it is such a pleasure to fish that I often times make do with its tweener status. For heavier weights (9-10-11), I am not as set. I have a new T & T 1509-3 that I'm hoping will fit the bill for most of my winter fishing. I also have the 1510-4 Scott ARC which I enjoy casting although it fishes more like a nine than a ten. Not surprising as I think the 1509 is really an eight.
Rob, have to agree with you on the Burkheimers being sweet rods. Since not everyone here knows your affiliation with them though, you might want to put that in your testimonials just so people can factor that in. Not saying you are wrong but you can hardly be unbiased.
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806 Posts
Like flytyer i like the fast action rods, but my choice would be the G-Loomis GLX's first followed by the T&T"s. I have used Loomis's rods for many years now and am very happy with them, But T&T make's a very nice rod and with me they come in a close second. tight lines,brian:devil:
sinktip your probably right but also understand the reason I work there is because of the product. I never set out to work for a rod manufacturer. I wanted to work in a fly shop but no one would hire me so I took the job there cause I think Kerry is a great guy.
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267 Posts
Spey Rods
I would have to say that the Sage line has just about everything a person could want in a spey rod. Everything from a fast action 15' rod to the new sloooooooooow action VPS 9140 and just about everything in between. If it werent for all of the problems that I keep hearing about with the warranty issues at CF Burkheimer I would say that these are probably some of the finest spey rods around. Good Luck and Tight Lines!
I would have to say that the Sage line has just about everything a person could want in a spey rod. Everything from a fast action 15' rod to the new sloooooooooow action VPS 9140 and just about everything in between. If it werent for all of the problems that I keep hearing about with the warranty issues at CF Burkheimer I would say that these are probably some of the finest spey rods around. Good Luck and Tight Lines!
Chromefever,
Sage doesn't make a rod as fast as the G.Loomis GLX or the T&T's. All the Sage rods are slower than Loomis and T&T. The thing I don't like about Burkheimer is they are a mmoderate, full-flex rod, and I like fast, full-flex rods like G.Loomis GLX and T&T. Yes, I can cast a Burkheimer and some of the Sage rods a long way, but I still don't like slowing down my casting stroke to do so.
The truth of the matter is exactly like Juro said, it depends on the manufacturer. To this I would add, it also depends on the type of rod action you like, and whether the manufacturer makes a rod of the line weight and length that you want.
When is somone going to make a fast, full-flex rod like a T&T or G.Loomis GLX in 17 or better yet 18 feet?
Sage doesn't make a rod as fast as the G.Loomis GLX or the T&T's. All the Sage rods are slower than Loomis and T&T. The thing I don't like about Burkheimer is they are a mmoderate, full-flex rod, and I like fast, full-flex rods like G.Loomis GLX and T&T. Yes, I can cast a Burkheimer and some of the Sage rods a long way, but I still don't like slowing down my casting stroke to do so.
The truth of the matter is exactly like Juro said, it depends on the manufacturer. To this I would add, it also depends on the type of rod action you like, and whether the manufacturer makes a rod of the line weight and length that you want.
When is somone going to make a fast, full-flex rod like a T&T or G.Loomis GLX in 17 or better yet 18 feet?
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267 Posts
Fast Action Rods
I personally have never tried a T&T or a Gloomis two hander. I do own a couple GLX one handed rods however and I love them. But for a spey rod I dont think I would want an extremely fast action rod since I prefer the slower casting stroke needed to use some of the Sages and the Burkheimers. Even some of the faster action Sages rods such as the 7141, 9141 or the 10161 are faster than I prefer. So I could not imagine trying to cast a GLX spey? This is all personal preference on my behalf and I am sure there are people out there who prefer and extremely fast action rod. I would think that you would expend a lot more energy trying to cast a fast action spey which would limit the amount of time I can spend on the water in a given day?
Good Luck and Tight Lines!
I personally have never tried a T&T or a Gloomis two hander. I do own a couple GLX one handed rods however and I love them. But for a spey rod I dont think I would want an extremely fast action rod since I prefer the slower casting stroke needed to use some of the Sages and the Burkheimers. Even some of the faster action Sages rods such as the 7141, 9141 or the 10161 are faster than I prefer. So I could not imagine trying to cast a GLX spey? This is all personal preference on my behalf and I am sure there are people out there who prefer and extremely fast action rod. I would think that you would expend a lot more energy trying to cast a fast action spey which would limit the amount of time I can spend on the water in a given day?
Good Luck and Tight Lines!
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1,771 Posts
I haven't quite settled on what I like yet - I still like to "cast around" and play the field.
I own the 7136-4 and like it, probably the slowest thing out there in the Sage line. Match the right line and let it do it's thing. In fact there is a satisfaction in learning how to really work that thing, really get it to flex deep in all the right places and it can cast 100' and more. For me the 7/8 midspey makes that rod rock.
I also own a 15ft Loomis IMX 8/9 4pc, which is anything but a noodle. It's light and has authority and drives the line fast and far. I love that rod too.
I won't bore you by listing other rods I own buy they are both traditional and euro style, and although they are different I play with them all and haven't quite figured out what my favorites are but it's fun trying. I am certainly no expert but do plan to keep learning, trying and enjoying the ride!
Question: What do people find casts the extended belly lines like the GrandSpey and XLT better - faster action or traditional; or is it more a function of blank length for these lines?
I own the 7136-4 and like it, probably the slowest thing out there in the Sage line. Match the right line and let it do it's thing. In fact there is a satisfaction in learning how to really work that thing, really get it to flex deep in all the right places and it can cast 100' and more. For me the 7/8 midspey makes that rod rock.
I also own a 15ft Loomis IMX 8/9 4pc, which is anything but a noodle. It's light and has authority and drives the line fast and far. I love that rod too.
I won't bore you by listing other rods I own buy they are both traditional and euro style, and although they are different I play with them all and haven't quite figured out what my favorites are but it's fun trying. I am certainly no expert but do plan to keep learning, trying and enjoying the ride!
Question: What do people find casts the extended belly lines like the GrandSpey and XLT better - faster action or traditional; or is it more a function of blank length for these lines?
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203 Posts
OK, I'll play
I think a medium/progressive action throws the longer line the best.
Faster action rods usually have a definitive "kick" point in the upper 1/2 of the blank. I own quite a few and they have many characteristics I really like and I fish them a lot. But I'm usually not fishing a belly longer than 70' with them.
When you get the proper grains of line past the tiptop, the fast-action speyrod will flex to this point and you'll have hit the "sweet spot" of the blank. Unfortunately, less line is often difficult to cast and more line will usually cause the blank to lose efficiency as the rod is flexed past the point of maximum "kick".
Progressive rods (all the Burkheimers, Sage 9150 and 8150, Diawa, Winston DBFs, etc) have a more continual flex. With the longer belly lines, the short casts are accomplished with the tip of the blank and as greater lengths of line are worked out the blank flexes deeper.
Since these rods have a more continuous taper, they have a greater range of line wts they cast effectively.
In addition, the best of these progressive action rods I've cast will deliver power thru the full range of the cast. What I mean is that, with a long belly line, you'll feel the heaviest load at the initial moment the forward cast is initiated. Then the middle section of the blank will add it's impetus, and finally the tip will roll out adding a final boost.
The final challenge, as I see it, is to attempt to merge the lighter faster characteristics of the one with the more progressive continuous power of the other. Many are experimenting with this, and there's at least one innovative designer making amazing strides in this direction.
Happy Casting!
Brian
I think a medium/progressive action throws the longer line the best.
Faster action rods usually have a definitive "kick" point in the upper 1/2 of the blank. I own quite a few and they have many characteristics I really like and I fish them a lot. But I'm usually not fishing a belly longer than 70' with them.
When you get the proper grains of line past the tiptop, the fast-action speyrod will flex to this point and you'll have hit the "sweet spot" of the blank. Unfortunately, less line is often difficult to cast and more line will usually cause the blank to lose efficiency as the rod is flexed past the point of maximum "kick".
Progressive rods (all the Burkheimers, Sage 9150 and 8150, Diawa, Winston DBFs, etc) have a more continual flex. With the longer belly lines, the short casts are accomplished with the tip of the blank and as greater lengths of line are worked out the blank flexes deeper.
Since these rods have a more continuous taper, they have a greater range of line wts they cast effectively.
In addition, the best of these progressive action rods I've cast will deliver power thru the full range of the cast. What I mean is that, with a long belly line, you'll feel the heaviest load at the initial moment the forward cast is initiated. Then the middle section of the blank will add it's impetus, and finally the tip will roll out adding a final boost.
The final challenge, as I see it, is to attempt to merge the lighter faster characteristics of the one with the more progressive continuous power of the other. Many are experimenting with this, and there's at least one innovative designer making amazing strides in this direction.
Happy Casting!
Brian
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267 Posts
DoubleSpey
O.K. now that you left that little tid bit hanging out there? Who is the MFG'r that is making these great strides to blend the best of both worlds. You cant just leave us hanging like that! :hehe:
O.K. now that you left that little tid bit hanging out there? Who is the MFG'r that is making these great strides to blend the best of both worlds. You cant just leave us hanging like that! :hehe:
JUro,
The extended belly lines castability I find is more a function of rod length. The reason is simple, a longer rod can hold more line in the air than a shorter rod. The 2-handed masters of old spoke about this and it is no less true today.
AT one time I was using an 8/9 Accelerator on my G.Loomis 13 foor GLX. All was well and I could cast 100 ft. if needed provided I remembered to "kick" the rod upward during the formation of the 'D' loop to keep the line aerialized. After I cast one of RIO's MidSpeys on this rod, I won't go back to a line with a belly over 65-70 ft. My 14 foot rods (inlcuding an old Sage 9140) are similar to the 13 ft GLX in this respect. They are dynamite with the MidSpey but require a lot of work to keep 75 or more ft of belly aerialzed. I would not want to get 100 ft of belly aerialized for an extended period of time with a rod shorter than 15 ft, too much work.
My 16 foot T&T rod is a very different story. It picks up an extended belly line with ease and keeps it aerialized with no trouble at all. I love the RIO 10/11 GrandSpey on this rod and will be using the Windcutter + Windcutter Upgrade very little with it anymore.
I have not found the T&T or GLX rods to stop flexing progressively down the blank. Quite the contrary, as I cast longer lengths of line the rod loads deeper and deeper down the blank. They are just a lot faster than the Sages, Burheimers, and Winstons.
The extended belly lines castability I find is more a function of rod length. The reason is simple, a longer rod can hold more line in the air than a shorter rod. The 2-handed masters of old spoke about this and it is no less true today.
AT one time I was using an 8/9 Accelerator on my G.Loomis 13 foor GLX. All was well and I could cast 100 ft. if needed provided I remembered to "kick" the rod upward during the formation of the 'D' loop to keep the line aerialized. After I cast one of RIO's MidSpeys on this rod, I won't go back to a line with a belly over 65-70 ft. My 14 foot rods (inlcuding an old Sage 9140) are similar to the 13 ft GLX in this respect. They are dynamite with the MidSpey but require a lot of work to keep 75 or more ft of belly aerialzed. I would not want to get 100 ft of belly aerialized for an extended period of time with a rod shorter than 15 ft, too much work.
My 16 foot T&T rod is a very different story. It picks up an extended belly line with ease and keeps it aerialized with no trouble at all. I love the RIO 10/11 GrandSpey on this rod and will be using the Windcutter + Windcutter Upgrade very little with it anymore.
I have not found the T&T or GLX rods to stop flexing progressively down the blank. Quite the contrary, as I cast longer lengths of line the rod loads deeper and deeper down the blank. They are just a lot faster than the Sages, Burheimers, and Winstons.
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806 Posts
Hi Juro, FredEvans let me try one of his XLT lines on my GLX 14' 9/10 and it handled it and cast it very nice. I only had the line for a couple of days and i did not get out on the river with it just to the local casting pond but it seemed to work well with the GLX,tight lines,brian:devil:
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