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Mr. Mom
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, my question was inspired by going to the Pot Bellied Pig website (see flytying section). There is a shot of someone casting. It is what I would call in my limited experience a "classic scotts cast" because most of the footage I see of the great scottish caster share this characteristic. It seems, that even the champions have a nice tight "V" up front, but it transitions to a lower leg that is 15 feet below the top leg, and the lower leg splashes down early. It doesn't quite run along the water like a bad rollcast, but it definitely lands early. Now this is even on super scary long casts, which by definition have to be energy efficient, I could never hope to match.

When one of my casts looks like this, I figure I am doing something right, or I wouldn't have a wedge leading edge, but I am also doing something wrong as my expectation is a laser beam straight lower leg and a line that unfolds above the water and the full length comes to rest on the water simultaneously... Well you know, kinda lands at about the same time.

So my question is kind of open ended. What are the opinions out there about this. Reasons it occurs, whether tackle related or technique related. Are we Norte Americanos and Canadiens overly concerned with what the cast looks like? Any observations and feeeeeeelings welcome.
 

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Philster,

I think there are a number of factors at play here. First, it is tackle related. The Scots cast long belly lines - often extreme long belly lines. These will not produce the laser loops that a shorter line can produce.

Secondly, it is technique related. Many of the Scots, Ian Gordon, Bill Drury and Nobuo Nodera (yes he is not Scottish - but the 10 years he spent there is when he learned to cast) use a longer upper hand dominant stroke and the other Scots like Scott MacKenzie, Gordon Armstrong, etc., employ the so-called "Ness Hammer". Both of these styles use a great deal of drift while forming the d-loop and a very long casting stroke. This produces the very large loop you refer to, a pointy V-shape leading edge, followed by this almost unreal "unfolding" of the rest of the line. I must admit it is very impressive to see - especially the first time in person!

This leads to the third factor, for a lack of a better term I will call it physics. It is simply that the line is just so damn long that gravity takes over and the belly of the line touches down while the turn-over is still occurring. If these monster casters could get the increased energy into their casts to manage an above the water turn-over they still wouldn't do it - instead they would simply extend their line and go for 70 yd casts! :eek:

Finally, to address your last point, yes I do believe that many people are obsessed with what their loop looks like. Yes, a pointy loop is cool and pretty, but if distance is the game even these "laser" guys will have a little less over-hang and go with a bigger loop.
 

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That is a sick amount of line!!! If that where me I would not care it it touched down early. I would be happy just to carry that much line and I might be wrong but it looks like he is shooting line as well. Very impressive.
Mike
 

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Mr. Mom
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Willie Gunn said:
Well it seems to be still up in the air here
Yes, but that bit by the caster won't be for long :D Believe me Willie, I am not being critical of the technique. How could one when the results are what they are. Just trying to understand. I'm also intrigued by the fact that they seem to get by with more line stick. Could just be a factor of the total length of line cast, meaning that if line stick can be 5% of total line length (no basis for that number, just throwing it out) 5% of a 50 foot line, vs. 5% of a 100 foot line is obviously a significant difference. Once again just trying to understand to see if there is anything I can steal and apply to my own fishing.
 

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sva01 said:
What a cool picture! Who is the featured caster?
Scott MacKenzie 2005/6 World Champion.

swingndeep said:
That is a sick amount of line!!! If that where me I would not care it it touched down early. I would be happy just to carry that much line and I might be wrong but it looks like he is shooting line as well. Very impressive.
Mike
Yes shooting line as well.
 

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Kush,
With the belly of the line hitting the water long before the fly, there will be few problem with the fly swinging too slowly!

The Sonic Swing! As a method of searching for aggressive fish, this beats even a PNW intruder.
 

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Bob,

Rare indeed is it in the steelhead/salmon world where such giant casts are necessary. In the one such place I frequent the inhabitants are really quite aggressive - so the faster swing is often a good thing!

As well, the belly section of these lines can usually be mended reasonably well anyway. Mind you with the cast that Scott is launching in the above photo he is so far into the mono running line that he will have a hell of a time mending that XLT belly :Eyecrazy:
 

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JD
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The Sonic Swing

Ah yes. I've often experienced this. All the time wondering if it was at all savable. (sp) Is that a legitimate word? :whoa:
 

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andre said:
That water appears to be a self mender. Looks to be association water on the Ness?
Probably Scotts beat...Ness-side, the next one up from the association.

For various reasons Scott no longer fishes with us riff-raff.

Scott might tell the story he tells it better than I ever could
 

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Hi Malcolm,
This was a long story lets put it this way we don't exchange many christmas cards anymore, :chuckle: competition distance casting can be very different in some ways but the principles can be the same,with all spey casting you do need some drag or friction as you shoot the line this helps the front end to turn over and it gives it some shape before it touches the water,in the picture i'm using my standard competition rig which is a xlt head to this i splice on some 0.35 salt water running line which is quite stiff,i've found this best and it dosen't tangle as easily if your standing on a platform,the draw back to this stuff is it sinks in fresh water so at competitions like the spey o rama i just use thick mono which comes of the water better,Kush is right i what he is saying about it being hard to mend the head after it land on the water ,but if you narrow the angle you are casting at you'll catch less of the current and this will help slow the fly down if need be,with regards to how soon to line touches the water the higher you keep it and the longer you keep it up the better as you won't shoot much line after it touches the water.

Scott Mackenzie
www.spey-casting.com
 

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`loop size and splashdown'

tonight i believe IT IS the line itself,,,the XLT,after practising with three different Daiwa16 ft rods lined with an 8-9 XLT,it always seemed to play out the same,the line would have that lower `un-lazer' like look at full belly casting most of the time,(but i AM quite rusty indeed) :chuckle: ,couple points of note=the XLT is not as easy as other lines i have to cast due to the light tip,great line!,but easy to make a mistake with,unfortunately ran out of daylight (and not wanting to wake up sore tomorrow),i did not line an 18 :rolleyes: tomorrow! ;) ,and i'll pull out the Wullf's and old mastery's as well just for kicks and then we'll be kicking some bollocks eh!,only one time did i cast the whole line out past the first guide :mad: so,,time for ale lads!,(one must hydrate properly to wash the rust away) :D ,that's the report! :hihi:
 

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also

i should point out that the caliber of the competition casters is awesome! not having even been to any competition,,yet casting rods that most would consider `too big' for `fishing' one can truly see how awesome it must be `on the ground' to watch those who cast TWICE as far as my best equipment and i can do :whoa: unreal!!,,my one acre parcel of land is 225 ft or so i belive from one side to the other,i stand in the middle and CAN hit the fence on a good cast(counting the leader),how about covering ALL if that in one cast!,UNBELIEVABLE!,my salute! :)
 

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Ness-style

Hi Hammer,
Been looking at getting Scott Mackenzie and Gordon Armstrong over to do a speyclave in BC next year, this will give everybody a chance to see some real distance casting, also see these guys casting in normal in fishing conditions.
Spoke to Scott yesterday and he is up for it. So going to work on some of the other guys see what i can do.
Gordon (speyghillie).
 

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swing'n Lemmings
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I may be wrong but

I believe on the dvd Art of spey Andy Murry talks about how he some times lets the bottom leg of the loop land early like that when it is windy. I believe he said it the line stick helps keeep the line from blowing around or back at you. Ill check it this am
Rambo
 
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