Spey Pages banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've got one coming to Michigan to test. I've looked at Rio's recommendations, but would like feedback from anyone who's tried this rod with some different lines. What lines make this rod sing? FWIW, I generally fish bellies of 65' or longer, and split between tips and floater w/ long leader and weighted fly or shot. Anyone out there who helped with developing this rod? Thanks!
Carl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,042 Posts
Carl,

As I've said before, the 14'4" Specialist is the most all-round rod of the Specialists, it will handle most any line configuration in the 8/9 range. If you like long-bellies, then the 7/8 Grandspey will really kick on this rod. I have cast the 8/9 GS, but I think it is just a little too much line for the rod.

The powerful turn-over characteristic of the Grandspey might be the right line for your kind of fishing. The difference between the 7/8 and the 8/9 will probably depend on the average distance you cast. If you fish relatively short, the heavier line will load the rod well and as you will not be carrying all the grains of the full line you will not be overloading the rod. However, if distance is a key factor, then the 7/8 would likely be a better choice. You will be carrying more line in the air and therefore the rod will load very well.

No matter what line, I think you will find the Steelhead Specialist an exceptional rod.
 

·
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
Joined
·
1,771 Posts
In addition to the hands-on recommendations Kush provided, I have cast the rod quite a bit with the shorter Airflo Traditional (85 ft head) in the 9/10 and it was spot-on match. That was the line we had on it at the Denver Show, and judging by the oohs and aahs coming from people testing the rod at the pool people agreed.

I'd like to try the gamut of lines (heads-55ft; 65-85ft; extended) on it when my demo Steelhead Specialists come home. A spring native field test is in order, with brother Skagit Specialist working intruders in the boudler gardens and Steelhead taking the seams. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Quite a range of line weights!

I've read of others liking the 8/9 Mid-spey and the 7/8 Airflo Traditional, just to add suggestions I've gotten off-board. I'm a little surprised to see the big range of line weights. Another thread on this page reports good result with the 8/9 XLT (990 gr over 90'). The GS 7/8 is 900 gr. over 82', the 9/10 Trad is 800 gr. over 85', the 8/9 Mid-Spey (w/ tips) is 680 gr. over 65', and the 7/8 Trad is 650 gr. over 82'.

I know that the felt load is a combination of weight over the length--i.e. 700 gr. stretched out over 80' would load more smoothly than 700 gr. over 40'. I'm not certain, but think longer bellies let you handle more weight because it makes sudden overload less likely (if your D-loop and stroke are smooth and not punchy).

Any thoughts on the big range of lines?

Carl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Rods are capable of handling a range of line mass because the load placed on the rod has a lot to do with speed of the mass outside the rod tip - the D-loop, and the mass of the line carried within the rod - from the tip down to the reel. Generally speaking a shorter D-loop for the same mass requires faster stroke timing. The mass x faster stroke means greater force in the D-loop (Mass x Velocity = Force, MxV=F) causing a deeper bend in the rod when you re-direct that force in your forward stroke. It will also mean that for short head lines the line within the rod will be the running/shooting line - less total line + rod mass within the rod, increasing the ability of the rod itself to recover from the loading from the forward cast movement.
A longer head line with more mass outside the rod tip will generally move at slower speed (V) for the same effort applied to form the D-loop. The total force generated can be the same as the short head example, but the stroke timing is slower because it will take longer for the D-loop to form up before the forward cast stroke.
A rods ability to throw different lengths of line, ie total mass inside and outside the rod tip, has a lot to do with the casting stroke applied and the rods ability to deliver the loaded energy - to straighten after being bent.
I think that is why the 'Skagit' style lines need to be relatively short. When the sink-tip anchors it is important for the forward cast to be made before the tip has had much time to sink. Shorter length rods with faster actions work more easily to generate the faster stroke timing. The same is true for the Scandinavian style underhand casts - shorter heads mean faster stroke timing and rods that are faster in design. Note that both line styles reduce 'in-rod' loads with small mass running lines.
Hope that's not too confusing. Just remember MxV=F. All rods, and casters, have a range of F that they can work with. Vary the M and V and it is amazing what any one rod is capable of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,042 Posts
Yikes!

This sounds like the physics class I dropped at university :eyecrazy:. I think this means that this rod can cast a hell of a lot of different lines!

I know that the first bunch of people we tested this rod with were also amazed by the very wide range of lines it cast - and cast well. I know that we at CND were not expecting it either. The group casting the rod that day proposed a number of theories, but not being engineers our ideas were not as technical as tackleman's but they might make sense.

My personal favourite theory is that the Steelhead Specialist is delightful combination of just the right length, taper and modulus graphite to create a "special" rod. The combinatin has just the right amount of all these factors resulting in the its amazing characteristics. We cast every line we brought with us except the big Speydriver I use on the 16'7" Thompson and the rod handled them like it was designed with each line in mind.

When I talk about CND's I usually try to avoid hyperbole, I like to let the rods speak for themselves. However, the 14'4" Steelhead Specialist is amazing.
 

·
Junkyard Spey
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
When I talk about CND's I usually try to avoid hyperbole, I like to let the rods speak for themselves.
And speak well they do!!:smokin:
 

·
Indicators Anonymous
Joined
·
846 Posts
tackleman-
Actually, force=mass x accleration.

Because of this, the speed of one's stroke (whether it be a single-hander or two-hander) does not play the role in load on the rod as much as the actual acceleration of one's stroke during the backcast/formation of D-loop (and ensuing forward cast).

As I tell my students (single-handed lessons), "Accelerate to a STOP!" The larger the acceleration, the larger force that is applied because the mass is constant. Plus...if one does not accelerate during their stroke, the dreaded tailing loop comes into play (because the force is being eliminated and thus 'energy' (I use that term loosely) is being lost).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
I really hope that I don’t step on somebody’s hurting toe’s now but you need to know what you are talking about if you are telling other people what to do and how things work.

Since I am from Sweden there can be some “misunderstanding” regarding the translation from different threads, (please give me some slack here), but I think that I need to insert my “personal” opinion and thoughts. There are some “rules/laws” in the physics that the most of us, engineers or not need to consider when we cast or write about casting.

Once upon time there was a physic named Albert Einstein, (anybody heard of him?). If I don’t remember it wrong, he did some quit innovative thinking a few years ago and ended up with the formula: E=MC2 (the energy is a function of the mass multiplied with the speed in square). This is still the way most physics look at energy and the way it transforms through different medias. If he is right!!! There should be some real thinking about the speed instead of the weight considering the set-up of our casting.

What are the factors we need to think about/calculate if we look into the fly cast in a mathematical way?
Speed, weight, gravity, ballistic “wind resistant”, water resistant (anchor friction) and so on, all of the ingredients to make a good cast. I don’t say that anybody is wrong in their thinking but if you transform a fly-cast into mathematic you should make the equation with the right formula, i.e. an increase of speed with a factor of two increases the energy with a logarithmic factor as in the following example: (40(weight) x (4(speed) x4(speed))=640; 40(weight)x(8(speed)x8(speed))=2560).

A small increase in speed makes a bigger increase in energy than putting on additional weight!

On top of this you need to add all the other variables and constants to make your own “fly casting equation”!!!

The conclusion of all this bull…. above is: The same rod with the same line can be loaded with a huge! difference in “energy”, all depending the factors (and many more) mentioned earlier.

Therefore it is obvious that different people uses different lines and set-up to get their stuff out there J

Think more of your own casting than different types of product’s, there is no shortcut to good casting!

Keep your rod-tip high!

Regards
;)
 

·
Mr. Mom
Joined
·
625 Posts
Physics Schmyzics! You can talk about that stuff all you want, but when it comes down to it the most successful teachers explain general principles to get folks to understand what is happening behind them IN LAY TERMS and then get them to either model good form, or work with the students form to get the cast working. Once decent form is established the most important question a teacher can ask is the one that comes after a good cast. That question is "How did that feel!" First form, then feeling, then true personal understanding grows and eventually comes the ability to pick up a rod and really feel what you like and don't like about different rods and different lines on those rods. I'm pretty much there with singlehand rods, maybe three years out with two handed.

There's a lot of B.S. casting instructors spout because it always has been spouted and not questioned. Keep your wrist stiff they say, then as they demonstrate they're snapping casts with their wrists. If you can actually SEE that a rod tip is following a flat path, more power to you. I don't believe you, but if you say you can I'm sure you can. As Joan Wulff says, watch your hand and the bottom foot of rod butt, because that's something you actually CAN see. Constant acceleration is required throughout the stroke? Tell that to Lefty Kreh :hehe:

Okay, enough tilting at Windmills for me. Like Kush said, any of the 8/9 lines work great on the rod :smokin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
All I know for sure is that my drool is pulled to the ground by gravity!

I'm more excited now than before to test this rod! Spigg, I think you're right that focusing on good casting technique is more important than looking for 'magic lines'. I was curious whether the rod liked a particular range of grain weights, as some rods seem to have a narrower range. I saw/heard recently (can't remember where, having read so many posts this weekend and watched the Sandy Clave video) something that said the physics of fishing rods is different because rods act as both a lever and a spring at the same time.

Kush, I think your theory about finding a special combination of length, material, and taper is probably the most accurate answer for why the 'good' range is so big. I guess the Steelhead Special is such an adaptable spring that it responds great with a wider range of lines (grain weights) than some other rods. Maybe that defines the new cutting edge of the term 'progressive action'.

Thanks to MJC for sending a try rod from Idaho to Michigan! I'm comparing this rod to the Custom 14 for 9, and will report back to this thread. Thanks for the suggestions and the physics reminders, and good fishin' to all!
Carl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,042 Posts
Boy, threads like this one just point out the obvious to me ... we need to fish - and soon! :eyecrazy:.

Seriously with all this casting stuff I will never claim to be a "techie" and I'm not much interested in becoming one.

I also love yanking on Dana's whiskers (as well as those of other casting instructors) by saying things like "I don't know what it is, but I just huck it out there and it seems to go pretty good" . But the reality is, of course, that sound technique is the key to good casting. There are no magical rods or lines out there - if you want to be a great caster you need to get out there and work at it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,829 Posts
Good Equation wrong application

Spigg - the E = mc2 equation is actually the loss of mass times the speed of light squared = the energy released in a nuclear reaction. We are not dealing with those changes here.

You can talk about the kinetic energy of this process given by KE = 1/2 mass times velocity squared. However this is only a part of a very complex system involving lever arms and a spring (the rod) of varying mass and resistance to bending. I doubt it has adequately been described, even with a super computer.

Fortunately we do not need the computer or equations to pick up a rod and test a number of lines to find out empirically what works best for us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
498 Posts
Wow
I am glad I can leave my PC at home when I go fishing :D

What I think everyone is saying, is load the rod on both strokes then grin when you get a good cast. Using single handed rods for over 50 years I developed a very long stroke. I find that this stroke does NOT work with my 2 hander so I am making shroter faster strokes and still enjoying myself.

Lets go fish

Skilly
 

·
Speyshop's Speybum
Joined
·
462 Posts
A few lines for thought

Special thanks to MJC for getting Carl a demo rod mine comes home only when it wants to.
Reminds me of me in the 60’s but that is another thread.

:devil:
The lines for the CND 1449 SH (Steelhead Special).
Lines 8/9 XLT has won more that one heart.
7/8 Grandspey has won even more heats.
9/10 and 10/11 Traditional I was informed is the line for it.
9/10 and 10/11 Midspeys and Longdelta. Work Excellent
The 10/11 or the 11/12 Scandinavia Tri Tips uncut both lines load the rod well just depending on how far you want to load it.

The rod loads expectably well with a custom head of 750 grains over 46 feet a youn man mentioned to me on Saturday last.

Lines weighing in between 700grains and 900 grains should be right at home.
The shortest test was 45 feet with a whopping 16.3 grains per foot and longest line was 92 feet with 11.3 grains per foot give you quite spread to work over.

Bear in mind that this rod is very versatile and will handle more grains per foot than most.

:smokin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Thrashing amidst the ice! (rod/line test)

It was almost cruel to receive the 'demo' rod in the mail on Monday (thanks MJC!-- it came earlier than you thought), knowing I'd have to wait for the weekend to get on the water. I couldn't just wag it inside, so I lined the rod (aiming for the heavy side) with a 10/11 Mastery Spey (800gr/77') and found some open grass. The rod loaded nicely and cast 10-20' into the running line. That made Saturday even harder to wait for.

Last night brought us temps around 20F, so I didn't hit the water until 10am. I cast (fished?) with the river full of broken ice all day, and had problems with ice building up on the lines, leaders, and flies after awhile (like having your tips go up a line weight and stop turning over). 32.5F water at 1pm (thank God for Simms Ex-streams, sadly now obsolete), but the ice wasn't solid so I was fishing!

Now about the rod and lines. The rod cast fine with the MS 8/9, but that line felt light to me. The MS 9/10 was a good match without feeling at all heavy. The 10/11 Mastery Spey cast well too, but I've never been a big fan of its design (20' front taper is a little long in a breeze, and there's no taper to the 50' belly. My 8/9 XLT is cut and looped (25' off) per Dr. Way's prescription, and it cast best of the bunch. Info I have says tips up to 200 gr, but I only tried 150. The cut XLT loaded better at short distances than the 9/10 MS. I'll fish those awhile, and see if I need to go longer (AF Trad 9/10 or Rio GS 7/8).

I also cast the CND Custom 9/10 for comparison. I didn't try the heavier lines as it loved the MS 8/9 so much. Great progressive action, but a different tool than the Steelhead Specialist. The Specialist has more reserve power and is a bit quicker, more of a big wind/big water rod. Both rods have the reserve power I want, but the Specialist will give a little more reach and handle a bit bigger fly or tip. It will do anything I ask and more, without feeling heavy or 'broomy'.

As much as I'd like both rods, I'm gonna get/keep the Steelhead Specialist.:smokin:

Carl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Another line test

Got ahold of a WC 10/11/12 looped, and got some time to spool and cast it late yesterday. The rod tossed the whole line, but I liked it without tip 2 as a Skagit line. Definitely not overloaded--easy to cast.
 

·
FISHIN' FREELANCER
Joined
·
1,425 Posts
thinking/studying......

carl, thanks for the reports on the 14'4" specialist. this rod is intriguing to me.

have you or anyone else tried this rod with heavier tips & comp/or big boys at all? curious as to how she will behave. have seen this rod described here as being quite similer to T&T 1409, known for being a great winter/deep sunk line rod.

looking fwd to feed back. slack season upon us, at least on this side of the divide. can afford patience.

thanks in advance for input, SG
 

·
Jack Cook
Joined
·
1,668 Posts
Rodzillas all!

I tried the 14'4" with the 7/8 GrandSpey and the 8/9. The rod casts it all right but it never quite felt right to me. Let me focus on RIGHT for a minute. Having spent some time, a lot of it, casting and fishing the Thompson and Salar with a variety of lines I think I have a feel for how the Specialist rods are supposed to load and cast.

I finally put an 8/9 Long Delta on it just on a whim since in my opinion the other Specialist rods cast truee to the first 2 numbers of the rating, ie 8/9/10 Salar casts to me like a true 9/10. Since the Steelhead is 8/9/10 I thought I would try an 8/9. The 8/9 feels great! The rods load clear into the handle with the 8/9 and blasts out beautiful loops. With this line it felt like the action of the Salar I was looking for.

I have also put some students on this rod with the 8/9 and their casting was perfect compared to the way they cast their 9140s.

I will try some other 8/9 lines on it shortly but so far lines in the TRUE 8/98 category, 650-700 or 9-10 grains per foot seems to be about right on the money. The XLT 8/9 should be a perfect dry line if this is the case.

More fishing time will br required.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Dragged out of storage

to reply to Kush's comments on another thread that the Airflo Long Delta 10/11 may be the line for tips on this rod, and another comment about the 7/8 XLT being a great dry line.

I'm finding the 9/10 Mid-spey better than the 8/9, but the 9/10 still feels light. The Airflo LD10/11 is a little heavier and sounds about right (The Rio MS 10/11 is too much heavier).

To me the XLT 8/9 was too heavy as a full dry line, so 7/8 sounds good. I just wish we could do without orange for the color.:rolleyes:

On the Skagit line concept, the shortened WC 10/11/12 is too light. I just got an 11/12/13 and will report back. The way I'm setting it up, it should fall in the 715-730 gr range at 43-44' with various tips.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top