[Grampa Spey]

A very good friend of mine is thinking about getting back into fly fishing after getting his new company well on the road to success. He has never fished with two handed rods, but he is very interested in using them.

He will be fishing the rivers of N California and maybe the coast lines. The main targets will be big trout, shad, half pounders, small mouth bass and maybe carp.

He is one big guy @ 6' 6". He is an excellent athelete and played semi pro Rugby in Australia. He has a couple of banged shoulders from his football and Rugby days.

We would appreciate feedback and comments from other Gentle Giants re rods. He is very interested in the Skagit systems. I have a Sage 5120, 6126 and a 7141 for him to try, and I have Meiser Switch Rods. I have Rio 450, 550 and 650 Skagit lines and a couple of Out Bounds for Skagit use with the 5120 and Meis's 5/6. So we should be able to match a good line with most smaller rods.

Would appreciate feed back from the really tall guys on this board.

What rods would be the best for this gentle giant to try or buy?

 

[Grampa Spey]

You should see when Bob Pauli and I go to a river!

Dave,
You have a better selection than most flyshops.:whoa:
Just take it all to the river.:chuckle:

When Bob and I go to a river to cast, we definitely have more rods than most fly shops.

Of course we have nothing when compared to Fred, who lives in your area.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Philster, thanks re watching the body rock

I'm 6'3" and the only thing I would say is to make sure he doesn't get into too much body rock in the casting stroke. With my naturally longer stroke, I find it too easy to rip my anchor loose with skagit length lines if I use much body rock. Other than that, I use a switch rod all the time and love it.

Thanks. If and when he starts, we will watch out for the body rock. I think that I did this on my local river this Tuesday, with my TCR 9129-4 casting some good size striper flies with a Rio 650 Skagit and a floating 15' tip with 10' leader and a couple of feet of tippet. When I first got there, the wind was minimal , and the tide was still flowing downstream, and I was putting a crease fly out easy with 3-4 rod lengths of the green shooting line.

About an hour later, my old shoulder was feeling the TCR, and the wind had changed and the Tide was running up stream. I was trying to hard to overcome all of this and my casts were barely going one rod length of shooting line past the tip. Looking back on it after your comment, I was breaking my anchor loose on the casts.

As luck would have it, on one of my worse casts a couple of stripers went after the crease fly and damn near chewed the finish off of it. This happened at about 50' past the rod tip. Earlier, I was casting 20=40' over that area.

One last question. What lines are you using with your Switch Rods.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Thanks Fred

Good suggestions all above; to add a couple. Major 'error' I see with new casters is keeping the elbows too low and too close into the body. Elbows (part of the mustle(sp?) memory thing) should be at about arm pit height and out from the chest.

This gets the upper body out of the casting motion and really helps with getting the 1-2-3 timing down.

Once your fellow picks a rod action he likes he may very well want to purchase a custom rod rather than 'one off the shelf.' Reason being is many now come with fairly short handles (cost of cork rings??). This tends to force the hands too close together and makes for more of a 'chopping action' on the forward cast/stop.
Fred

This guy has huge hands, so a custom grip might be better for him. I have thought about Meise or Gary Anderson custom fitting a name brand rod for him later on. I have X-Large hands, and the Grips on my 7141 and another brand name 9 weight were too big for my hands. Meiser thiinned the grips and the rods became easier to hold and cast.

It is that old problem of someone starting out. Do you have them spend a lot of money up front and get a custom fitted or made rod? Or get them an off the rack medium priced rod to see if they like the two handed rods.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Steve thanks for your comments.

Thanks for your comments.

Since you are about the same height as my friend, your comments are very valuable.

I have some mental image problems re him even trying to hold my favorite rods the 5120, 6126 or my 5/6 Switch rod, and even my TCR 9129-4 with the shorter handles. If and when we go out, I will bring my old Sage 7136 with it's longer handles. Who knows, the 7136 might end up as his light rod and the 7141 as the heavy rod. The 7136 does a good job with a Rio Skagit 450 and nothing is better re dry lines with it and the MS 6/7 Floater and a 15' leader and a couple of feet of tippet.

Your suggestions re the lower hand positions/holding will be passed on.

 

[Grampa Spey]

JD, maybe I should try to get him down to the Speyorama

When I lived in So Ca, I was helping a fellow club member learn Spey casting. This man was hugh! His belt was about level with the tops of my waders. XXL hands. He had custom grips the size of a baseball bat on all his rods.

So he wants to learn about Spey casting. He goes out and buys what must have been at that time the smallest lightest Spey rod on the market. A Loomis GLX about 11'-6" or 12'-0" long. And has the fly shop build it up with one of these baseball bat grips before he ever cast it. Can you see where this is going?

He shows up at the club pond one day when I am there. Frustrated because he can't seem to get the hang of it. So I'm trying to help him. Don's M.O. had always been, if it doesn't work, put a little more oomph into it. He had plenty of reserve, and I think he used pretty much all of it that day.

It was way too much for that lil' ole' baby Spey. That thing split open from the top of that oversized grip all the way up to the ferrule. Sounded 'bout like a .22 in a canyon. And, like they say, the look on his face,,,,,priceless.:chuckle:

Don had the rod repaired. And he did learn to Spey cast. His favorite Spey rod became a St. Croix 14' 9wt.

Funny that you should mentioned this. I had just got out my old 7136 and looked at the grip and thought how much smaller and maybe more fragile some of my smaller rods are.

Maybe I can get him down to the Speyorama to practice with their rods.?

 

[Grampa Spey]

Phil, is the 7/8 your Switch rod

Good news regarding your crease fly. I've never found the finish mattered that much :hihi:

The last couple of weeks I've been playing with lines on my 7/8 and I've landed on a great combo. A 10/11/12 windcutter backbelly (378 or so grains) and the tip from a floating 8wt single hand versitip. With this combo, I wasn't even putting any energy into the Dloop. Just got it behind me, throw a nice tight underhand stroke, and it was laser loop time. Mike Kinney threw it a couple times, turned to me with a smile on his face and said "Yuz Scandinavian now!" The only downside is that if you over muscle it, the energy hits the tip and the tip just says "No Mas!" and the whole thing falls apart.

Re the chewed up Crease Fly, yesterday afternoon while shopping for the evening's groceries, a fellow shopper asked me if I had been casting on our local River Tuesday afternoon, (White hair can be like a flag!). I said yes, and he said that I had two Stripers hitting and smashing the Crease fly. He said that they will do that to floating targets sometimes. They will hit and maim/stun the smaller fish and return to eat it. Turns out this guy was on the bridge just down stream wondering who the nut was casting a fly in the river. He is going to our local fly shop to buy the few Crease Flies left in their stock.

Is that line combo being used with your 7/8 Switch Rod? I recently found a "how to email re underhand casting" that Bob sent to me years ago after I bought a couple of his switch rods. I use that technique in a boat while striper fishing. As you noted, if you over power it, it just collapses out there. My fly outruns my not that great of a loop, and gravity slams all of it down.

The Outbounds and Bob's switch rods can be scary if you do everything correct. If you over power them, the failure is even more dramatic.

 

[Grampa Spey]

The Rio Skagit 450 works very well with Meise's 7/8.

Yup Grampa, the 7/8 is a switch rod. I started messing around when I saw that bob recommended the 450 skagit for the 8/9 switch rod, so I just went down from there for the 7/8. I throw an 8 wt outbound on it for overhead casting off the beaches up here on the sound, but at 330grains, it's too light but all for emergency underhand casting.

Last December I posted a thread re Meise's 7/8 switch rod and the Rio Skagit 450. It worked great for me and a friend who had never Spey Cast nor Skagit Cast. In fact it worked so well for him, he made me an offer for the rod that I couldn't refuse.

The 8 Wt Outbound Floater didn't load my Meiser 5/6 Switch Rod for Skagit and Double Spey casts and Snake Roll Casts. Bob Pauli and I discovered that the Outbound 10 Wt Floater did a great job with the 5/6 Switch rod.

Casting from my boat with the Switch Rods and the OB intermediate with type 8 sinking tips, it becomes a different game. The OB intermediate type 8 - 6wt line overwhelms the 5/6 rod, unless you pull in about 7-8 foot of the head past the rod tip. Then, it fires a sinking fly like a laser. The 7/8 switch rod in the boat was the same way with the OB intermediate type 8 - 8 weight line. We had to pull in about 7-8 foot of the head to set up the underhand cast. Then it was like a laser launch. In fact at my usual anchor spot in a marina cove, I hit a boat that never moves twice ( I have never hit it with my 9/10 switch rod and a 350 grain head, Rio Striper Line). We pulled anchor and went away about 30' and dropped anchor, and the casts with the 7/8 rod and OB intermediate type 8/8wt were falling about 3-4 ' from the boats side, where the stripers like to hide.

I need an engineer to explain to me :Eyecrazy: why we can cast heavier OB floating lines versus the OB intermediate type 8 with the same rod.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Sean, we were casting them from a boat fishing for Stripers

I cast all the same outbound line weights on the same rods overhead. Are you changing fly size? For spey casting though it probably comes down to technique and the shorter lever rods you are using.

It is not the easiest to spey cast those type eight lines as they start sinking quickly and you are getting a lot of stick. It becomes harder the shorter the rod.

-sean

Sean, we were using Meise's Switch rods with some sinking Striper Lures from my boat. The casts were overhead and/or under handed casts.

The California Delta/local River method for fly fishing for Stripers most of the year is to cast as far as you can to the lanes or holding areas and let the sinking line sink until just before or as the fly hits bottom, which is often 10' or deeper. Then, you slowly retrieve the fly until you can see it if the water is clear enough. If nothing is chasing it, you set up the cast with a roll cast. Sometimes you bring the fly right to the side of the boat. Nothing wakes you up any faster than a big Striper running into your boat trying to catch your fly.

With both the 5/6 and 7/8 switch rods with the 6 wt OB type 8 on the 5/6 and the 8 wt OB on the 7/8, neither my friend or I could managed the entire head and a fairly heavy sinking fly. We had to pull in 7 to 8' of the head past the rod tip to even set up the roll cast for the two handed overhead or underhand cast with a quick touch and go of the fly after the roll cast for the two handed version of the haul and cast. Once we pulled in the 7 to 8' of the head past our rod tip, we were very pleased with the results.

Even with my 9/10 switch rod with a one hand Rio 350 grain/26' built in head line, I have to have the beginning of the head at the rod or just inside the rod tip to properly cast a good size sinking fly. I also have the Rio Striper Versa Tip line for this rod. I and my Cro Mag son max out @ about 400 grains casting from our boats and we have to bring the loop where the sinking tip is connected to the rod tip, and these tips are 26' long.

My friend and I used these sinking OBs with these rods in a local lake, to get deep for the trout. To say the least it was a hassle. So we are anxious to try the Skagit 450 with the 7/8 Switch Rod and the 10 wt OB floater with the 5/6 switch rod and some 15 sinking tips, Rio's type 8 12' sinking leaders and some T8 tips from my boat to go deep and floating tips for top water and intermediate action. Skagit casting these shorter rods is a lot easier than hauling the sinking lines around.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Moose, I thought about you when I posted this ?

Gramps, I'm 6'3" and 260 pounds, played football, boxed, etc.. I love the ultra light spey rods and don't think there's any concern there except for 1 thing: big guy, big wing span. Make sure the grips are full sized and both are long enough to accomodate not only large hands but a wider shoulder spread. I prefer a longer grip because where I put my hands out measures wider than where an average 5'10" guy will put his hands out and the shorter grips just don't feel right to me.

You and he are similiar in build.

Do you like the longer light rods?

Hopefully, I can get him down to the Spey O Rama on Saturday to see about hand/grip fitting.

 

[Grampa Spey]

You are correct re pro instruction

for your friend. Since he is a beginner, he needs help in getting started. Just because someone can cast well, does not mean they are a good instructor. The latter takes the ability to see and explain how to correct a fault. There are some little things that make a big difference in this style of casting.

It sounds like the Skagit or scando heads are going to work best for your situation. That takes very little effort when you are doing it right, so the temptation to use more power, will be one of the biggest issues.

I have promised him a trip to one of the rivers. However, I would not dare to try and teach him.

 

[Grampa Spey]

I have thought about your T&T lighter rod.

Dave,
Lower grip length will be a problem. The only six weight and lower rated Spey rod I have cast with a decently sized lower grip is a T&T. My hands are not large.

I don't do well with the T&T's , but their lighter rod might be great for him.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Hopefully it will stop raining and we can our boats out

Hmm that it interesting as the lines are all the same grain weights across densities.

I use the atlantis rods with outbounds which are about the same length as meisers switch rods. We use the same wt line for all densities. I use the floater, intermediates and type 8 off the beaches here. I do not spey cast these rods though and use them strictly as overhead sticks. The grains are all the same so it really should not matter but it sounds like it does for you on your rods...

-sean

Hopefully, it will stop raining, and we can go out in my boat and try the sinking and floating OBs with the Switch Rods on the same trip. Last fall I didn't have the floating OBs. We just had the sinking OBs for our trips. I remember very well the how the sinking OB 8 was all that the 7/8 Switch rod could handle and we needed to pull in about 7-8' of the head to even set up an over or under hand cast. Yet while wading and casting in a river with the Rio Skagit 450 is a great match for the Switch 7/8 Rod using Double Spey Skagit casts.

Yet, when Bob Pauli and I tried the floating OBs while wading and casting on the river with Skagit and Double Spey casts, the Floating 0B 8 didn't even load my 5/6 Switch rod. The OB 10 floater was a great match for the 5/6 Switch rod, and I have the feeling that it may too much of a line for my 9/10 Switch Rod in the boat with the 425 grain head and a Crease fly. The OB 8 floater w/the 330 grain head will probably be a good match for the 9/10 Switch Rod and a floating striper fly.

Thanks for your responses and time.

 

[Grampa Spey]

Moose, thanks for your comments

Gramps, I love the long light rods. Faves are the Meiser 12 1/2 foot 4/5/6, the Burkie 7133 and 7141. On my rods I had Bob and Kerry build long, full length grips on them and I still grab them at the very top of the upper grip and at the ball at the bottom grip like Steve does. Works great.

Kush is also a big ol boy and I know he loves the lightweight CND's, maybe he'll chime in on his thought too.

Jim

Jim, thanks for all of your comments. As you know a large part of the waters we fish in N California don't really require the heavy/big fish rods. I imagine you big and tall guys when matched well with the long light rods can really reach out and touch the feeding and holding lanes with ease. The suggestion of long full length grips has come from several of our taller guys.

My friend travels a lot, so a 5 piece rod with a long full length grip might mean some casting and fishing when he travels. A rod tube a little longer than 30 inches will fit into a two suiter suitcase. I used to do that with my one handed rods when I worked or consulted after retirement or visited relatives and friends.