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I have seen many fisherman (not competition casters) struggle with anchor placement by going flat. One in particular was having so much trouble that I suggested to him a slight dip (I call it a curtsy) to help place the anchor in the proper position. When he did this he was immediately “in the game” and making very acceptable Single Speys. For absolute distance no way would I dip however, we have to remember most guys want to fish and are not interested in 150’ casts all day long. If a slight dip helps them achieve this that’s great! It’s a fishing cast we are talking about here, not competition casting. I would not dismiss the teaching methods of Simon or Ian, they are both great casters. Their methods work for them as well as many other fisherman. I’m sure most of us all started out in this game doing high lifts and big dips but we evolved over the years to using flatter rod movements. 99% of the guys just want to make acceptable fishing casts, if a slight dip helps then good for them.

Gene Oswald
But Gene, we all want to cast 150' plus! That's why we spend so much time casting across the river into shallow barren water on the far bank. It's human nature and a guy thing. What fun would it be casting 15' into productive water at your feet! 😁
 

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But Gene, we all want to cast 150' plus! That's why we spend so much time casting across the river into shallow barren water on the far bank. It's human nature and a guy thing. What fun would it be casting 15' into productive water at your feet! 😁
Personally I also highly value the most RELAXING way to do them all day - and that’s an OLD guy thing.
 

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Well, I am a boy wading among men like Bruce and Gene when it comes to casting..... But I did get some advice from a friend of both that really helped my single. He saw my single and said it was very traditional with the lift, sweep with a slight dip, then fire. Right out of the Gawsworth DVD. The advice I got was to always be climbing, so for an extreme change of direction I may start my lift with the tip at the water surface, about halfway between the dangle and direction of the interest, then lift and twist my hips until the rod tip is pointing where I want to go, and only then kick out the bottom hand into the firing position. I did have trouble at first with what Gene saw in his buddy, where the line would swing out. But that was when I sped it up too much and had my rod too close to my body. The key for me is to slow down and leave my hands alone until I kick out the bottom hand into the shooting position. I am doing this with 55 to 65' heads on 14+ foot rods. I also agree with Poppy that getting the line out there is what is most important.
 

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Yes, different strokes for different folks ... Here are two great examples of no dip, incline sweep (try slowing playback to twenty-five percent for easier study). Lastly, the ah-ha moment for me using this method was observing how the lift need not be so high, how the rod can be flatter on the lift, that the line can be picked up via a flatter rod angle by being slow and gentle at the start before gradually speeding up into the sweep. You'll notice that when the sweep begins, because it's an incline sweep, a secondary lift pulls even more line off the water as more tension is applied on the sweep's pull-back. This enables the flatter lift angle at all and the avoidance of the high lift. Provided the initial angle of the rod is enough, the continuation of this angle into the sweep eventually pulls the fly out of the water and sets up the gentle anchor touchdown, so it's the incline sweep that makes the fly airborne. The elevation of the fly's flight tops out at maybe only a foot or so off the water (a low flight with a gentle landing) ... that was it for me, that's when it became easy. I have yet to see a video that shows what I hope I accurately described:
 

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Yes, different strokes for different folks ... Here are two great examples of no dip, incline sweep (try slowing playback to twenty-five percent for easier study). Lastly, the ah-ha moment for me using this method was observing how the lift need not be so high, how the rod can be flatter on the lift, that the line can be picked up via a flatter rod angle by being slow and gentle at the start before gradually speeding up into the sweep. You'll notice that when the sweep begins, because it's an incline sweep, a secondary lift pulls even more line off the water as more tension is applied on the sweep's pull-back. This enables the flatter lift angle at all and the avoidance of the high lift. Provided the initial angle of the rod is enough, the continuation of this angle into the sweep eventually pulls the fly out of the water and sets up the gentle anchor touchdown, so it's the incline sweep that makes the fly airborne. The elevation of the fly's flight tops out at maybe only a foot or so off the water (a low flight with a gentle landing) ... that was it for me, that's when it became easy. I have yet to see a video that shows what I hope I accurately described:
For me, the down side of that video is that’s my rod and line (15 ft Gaelforce and 63 ft Gaelforce head), that Zack is continually burping on the reel. Bruce did it, Whitney did it, Tim did it..... burp, burp, burp........ all using my rod/line- so there’s plenty of proof the only limiting factor with that rig is me.

Cheers to all willing to generously share their knowledge and skill.
 

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I’ll add to this my .02 cents, as a relatively new convert to touch and go/single spey/scandi casting.
I, too, struggled with the cast as I learned. Spent some time with Dan (eriefisher) and some other great people this summer, all casting longer lines. Some simple tips that got me consistently throwing “fishable” casts from Dan was a slow lift, tension (no dip), and keeping my hands out front (elbow in tight!), with the bottom hand kicking out. Simple.
I try not to think about too much else besides slow lift, keeping tension, and hands out front. You’ll feel it when you know you’ve done it right, right into the cork. The forward cast comes with ease. Most of my casts are fishable, and I bet I can get it out there 80+ feet with consistency, including tip and leader and all that. I can certainly throw more when needed.
As an aside, I’ve also had one of my best years actually fishing. More fish hooked and caught, which I can only attribute to not only more time with my fly in the water, but better coverage as my casts become straighter and tighter to the fly, fishing at more a downstream angle than I had before, when I fished primarily skagit casting.
I’ve become so comfortable throwing singles and snake rolls this year, that I’ve only used a skagit once, when the river was really rockin’.
Ryan
 

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Yes, different strokes for different folks ... Here are two great examples of no dip, incline sweep (try slowing playback to twenty-five percent for easier study). Lastly, the ah-ha moment for me using this method was observing how the lift need not be so high, how the rod can be flatter on the lift, that the line can be picked up via a flatter rod angle by being slow and gentle at the start before gradually speeding up into the sweep. You'll notice that when the sweep begins, because it's an incline sweep, a secondary lift pulls even more line off the water as more tension is applied on the sweep's pull-back. This enables the flatter lift angle at all and the avoidance of the high lift. Provided the initial angle of the rod is enough, the continuation of this angle into the sweep eventually pulls the fly out of the water and sets up the gentle anchor touchdown, so it's the incline sweep that makes the fly airborne. The elevation of the fly's flight tops out at maybe only a foot or so off the water (a low flight with a gentle landing) ... that was it for me, that's when it became easy. I have yet to see a video that shows what I hope I accurately described:


However you like to do it it is the combinations of the increasing RATE of the turn - acceleration (creates force) along the curve, and the SHAPE of the curve which adds acceleration (creates forces) perpendicular to the curve that create the balance of tension in the line. So for example a lariat loop trick has ALL the tension created by the curve, and none by acceleration parallel to the axis. Simon Gawesworth has a wonderful thing he does sometimes in demos talking about the turn where instead of turning 90 degrees he lifts the whole line up and spins it in a circle over his head making the point you could go around forever like that, with constant tension and in complete control and the drop it wherever you want. The only goal is to get it to land where and how you want on the water with sufficient tension for your purposes. Lots of different ways work and are perfect in their own right. And around each way that works, and in many cases have been around for a long time, there are many ways you can execute incorrectly.

But you can learn more about how it all ties together, even from a cast style you personally would never do, by explaining how it works accurately. A different shape that works no more creates “slack” (or other problems) in and of itself than Simon’s Spey lariat trick. Explaining how something actually works inaccurately, even something you can do supremely well, is just the human condition. But IMHO the place where things distinctly start to slip is when you then start building a whole theory around the iffy explanations.
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
Gaelforce
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made this video this morning and the audio is not the greatest when I put my back to the phone but pretty clear that the line follows the rod tip……😏

 

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BULL DOG!!!!
Gaelforce
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However you like to do it it is the combinations of the increasing RATE of the turn - acceleration (creates force) along the curve, and the SHAPE of the curve which adds acceleration (creates forces) perpendicular to the curve that create the balance of tension in the line. So for example a lariat loop trick has ALL the tension created by the curve, and none by acceleration along the axis. Simon Gawesworth has a wonderful thing he does sometimes in demos talking about the turn where instead of turning 90 degrees he lifts the whole line up and spins it in a circle over his head making the point you could go around forever like that, with constant tension and in complete control and the drop it wherever you want. The only goal is to get it to land where and how you want on the water with sufficient tension for your purposes. Lots of different ways work and are perfect in their own right. And around each way that works, and in many cases have been around for a long time, there are many ways you can execute incorrectly.

But you can learn more about how it all ties together, even from a cast style you personally would never do, by explaining how it works accurately. A different shape that works no more creates “slack” (or other problems) in and of itself than Simon’s Spey lariat trick. Explaining how something work inaccurately, even something you can do supremely well, is just the human condition. But IMHO things distinctly start to slip when you then start building a whole theory around the iffy explanations.
There’s tension and there is max tension 🤷🏻‍♂️ I never said what I teach is mine rather it’s what lots of the best casters do btw as witnessed by Simon and Topher teaching line follows rod tip or incline lift or rod pointed at target before going into the backcast 🤔😜

here’s some more videos on line following rod tip
please explain how this is false or not true 🤷🏻‍♂️ As mentioned if the line did not follow the rod tip the 180 degree principal wouldnt work I guess but I’m no physicist 🤣


 
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I am trying to learn the above with a scandi line.

The line I have is a Rio Scandi which is 37 ft. I'm not doing too well with it. The main problem is getting a light anchor so the cast doesn't get bogged down.

I am thinking that it might be easier to start with the underhand style (i.e. Goran Andersson). It seems to me that to cast this way you need a significantly shorter line (around 23 ft for a 14 ft rod). LOOP and Rio both make heads this size but they talk about putting tips on them which would extend them out to over 30 ft. I suppose this might work if you can anchor the tip but wouldnt that make the anchor too heavy?

Hopefully someone can enlighten me.
No wonder it's hard to learn, nobody can agree on how to do it.:):):)
Small stick, Large D loop, 360˚ out is - in a nutshell - what everyone is saying their own way. Plug those principals in to everything else you already know on fly casting; Straight line rod path, smooth acceleration to a stop, and follow through.
 

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Bruce, “The line follow the tip” has nothing to do (as far as I can see) with what we have been debating about - it is more like the obvious premise we all start with. So your repeating this over and over again just has me baffled. I never said that the way you teach is wrong, or that it was all yours originally, just that your explanation why it was the only right way to do it right was mechanically inaccurate. If you recall (hasn’t seemed like for a while now) my only objection was the statement that you couldn’t or shouldn’t do things any other way.

Like I said above, seems like the bit about creating “slack” is something added on after. At the risk of stepping deeper into the doodoo, remember I said for pure power the figure of eight style was not optimal in the first post. For pure power you need pure speed to generate the load at the end, and pure speed means short time. Gravity is the same, so the line falls at the same rate, so that requires a lower sweep. A lower sweep allows for little to no dip. Just don’t go backwards and say it is the only way to make one work - is literally all I’ve been saying.
 

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Stance is just another factor too. I notice that while I shift weight on my rear leg at the lift/sweep my shoulders dip...

An inclining lift/sweep into drift ( AKA circle-up motion) directs the D Loop while minimizing and keeping the anchor straight.
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
Gaelforce
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Bruce, “The line follow the tip” has nothing to do with what we have been debating about - it is more like the obvious premise we all start with. So your repeating this over and over again just has me baffled. I never said that the way you teach is wrong, of that it was even yours originally, just that your explanation why it way the only way to do it right was mechanically inaccurate.
what was the word you used gobbledegook lol
you said you didn’t agree with the line following the rod tip so just clearing some of the mystery up for people who would like to learn to cast easier so pretty relevant to thread on single spey casting
 
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